From SermonAudio:
Ecumenical meeting marks first time Mormons join in papal gathering
NEW YORK (CNS) — For the first time, representatives of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints participated in a papal prayer service — and it all started over coffee.
In an interview with Catholic News Service and other reporters before the start of the ecumenical prayer service at St. Joseph’s Church in New York April 18, Father James Massa, executive director of the U.S. bishops’ Secretariat of Ecumenical and Interrreligious Affairs, said that during a coffee break at a recent meeting a representative of the Latter-day Saints asked him if there was any possibility of their participation in the papal visit.
“My reaction was, ‘Why not?’ We have shared values and there is a possibility of collaboration on a number of social issues while respecting our theological differences,” he said. …
Sure! Why not? The Mormon church was only founded on the fact that founder Joseph Smith said that all other churches were wrong, an abomination, and corrupt. Why not?
Filed under: Apologetics, Church Life, Cults, Mormonism
Great point. A Mormon friend said that Mormons were Christians and I laughed because I thought he was kidding. He wasn’t. I pointed out that a foundation of Mormonism is that it is the true church and we are not a part of it. I said that I wasn’t offended that Mormonism says we’re different, so why is he?
Mormons are Christians. We believe in Jesus Christ, his atonement, his sacrifice, his mission, his divinity, his death on the cross, his resurrection and ascension, and his imminent return to rule and reign. Do we believe in traditional Christian orthodoxy? No. We believe that the authority of God’s priesthood and church fell apart soon after the death of the apostles in the first and second centuries. We do not agree with the creeds and postulations of the churches in the centuries that followed (which isn’t too much different than the Protestantism). We return to the teaches of Jesus Christ himself and his apostles that are found in the New Testament. In other words, we do not believe in post-New Testament Christian history. But that does not disqualify us from being Christian. We believe that Jesus Christ restored his church and authority once again upon the earth in 1830 through the calling of a prophet, Joseph Smith, and that all the keys, ordinances, doctrines, and principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ have been revealed once again from God in heaven.
Bryce, are you claiming that Mormons are Christians but other denominations are not Christians? Do we need to belong to the LDS to be saved?
The further one drills into LDS theology the more obvious it is that we aren’t talking about the same Jesus.
Also, if the “principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ have been revealed once again from God in heaven,” can you show me which parts of the Bible are in error? When LDS folks visit me they claim that they believe the Bible insofar as it has been properly translated. When I ask which parts weren’t properly translated they have no answer.
Is your Gospel the same as the one Paul recorded in the NT? If not, I’ll stick with the NT, especially based on the warning below. If it is the same, I’ll still stick with the NT because yours would be redundant.
Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
We believe that all those who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the only Savior and Redeemer of mankind, the Atoning One, the Messiah, is a Christian. Any denomination that believes this is a Christian denomination.
No, you do not need to belong to the LDS Church to be saved. But to receive a fulness of salvation you do need to believe in the one true God, and in Jesus Christ whom he has sent, and do all those things which Christ has commanded us to do. We believe that God has called prophets and apostles today to reveal God’s will for us on earth, just as he has done in ages past. It is by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel that all mankind may receive a fulness of salvation in the kingdom of God.
I know of no other Jesus than the one who was born in Bethlehem, walked in Galilee, suffered in Gethsemane and died on the cross, was resurrected on the third day, and ascended into heaven with a promise of return.
We do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. We don’t believe in the inerrancy of the Book of Mormon either, for that matter. These were scriptures that were written by mortal men, albeit inspired by God. But they are not perfect. Since the days of Adam, God has called men to write his word, and they have continued to write in all times and in all places the things which God reveals. There is no end to the words of God. If he wishes to speak, he will speak.
We believe all scripture is the word of God, including the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. But we do not consider these to be perfect books. The Bible has been transcribed, copied, translated, and retranslated dozens of times, and each time there is a chance for introducing errors or different understandings of words. The Prophet Joseph Smith helped reintroduce and retranslate certain words, phrases, and sections of the Bible that were misunderstood or had been lost. This is called the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible (JST), and is available in many locations.
The gospel that was preached by the Prophet Joseph Smith was not “a gospel other than the one we preached to you,” so Paul’s warning is not applicable. Joseph Smith preached the gospel of Jesus Christ, faith on him, repentance of sins, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. He preached that the only name by which mankind may be saved is that of Jesus Christ.
“These were scriptures that were written by mortal men, albeit inspired by God. But they are not perfect.”
That is an important dodge for Mormons given the vast errors and changes to the Book of Mormon. But it doesn’t apply to the original writings of the Bible. It is a fallacy to say that just because men can make mistakes that they always make mistakes. More here – http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/men-wrote-the-bible-so-it-must-have-mistakes/
“The gospel that was preached by the Prophet Joseph Smith was not “a gospel other than the one we preached to you,” so Paul’s warning is not applicable.”
Are you claiming it is the same Gospel? Then who needs the LDS teachings?
“We believe that all those who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the only Savior and Redeemer of mankind, the Atoning One, the Messiah, is a Christian. Any denomination that believes this is a Christian denomination.”
That’s news to me. None of the Mormons I’ve encountered walk away when I tell them I’m a Christian. They think I need to join their church to get right with God.
They also concede that their God was a man who became God, that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer, that we are saved by works, etc.
“The Bible has been transcribed, copied, translated, and retranslated dozens of times, and each time there is a chance for introducing errors or different understandings of words.”
This is another common error. We have thousands of copies to work from and can easily discern what the originals said for all key doctrines.
The Bible that most people read was only tranlated once, from Greek to English. There are many English translations, but each came from Greek to English. That is a hugely different from the common misconception that it was translated from Greek to Latin to English to a bunch more translations in English. So there was a translation but no re-translations.
Also see http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2006/12/04/how-many-times-was-your-bible-been-translated/
I think it is an equal fallacy to say that even though men can make mistakes they somehow never made one in their vast writings about God, and in the subsequent transcriptions and translations of those writings, not to mention the dozens of scriptures that were thrown out of the Biblical canon several centuries after Christ but were revered by the early Christians at the time of Christ.
The restored gospel of Jesus Christ is the same gospel of Jesus Christ that he preached in the meridian of time. There is only one true gospel (Eph. 4:5). The problem is that many truths of that gospel were lost after the martyrdom of the apostles and the many early Christians. That is why God restored them in their fulness today.
We believe that there are many many Christians in the world, and that they are all correct in their worship of Jesus Christ of Nazareth as Savior and Redeemer, as we worship the same. We believe that they have many truths of the gospel right which lead them toward God. But we do not believe that they have a fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ that will bring them into the presence of God. We say, bring all the truth that you have and let us add to it.
If you know a foreign language you know that even one translation from one language to another introduces errors in meaning and understanding. We would all have to read and understand perfectly the original Greek and Hebrew to understand what the original authors meant. Unfortunately we do not have one original Greek or Hebrew manuscript from any book of the Bible. Even the oldest manuscripts we have are all copies of the originals, and probably several generation copies at that.
“If you know a foreign language you know that even one translation from one language to another introduces errors in meaning and understanding.”
That can happen, but we have lots of translations to work from and lots of experts who have translated from the Greek accurately. You are the one claiming errors, so if you want to tell me what has been mistranslated and why I’d be interested.
More importantly, I was addressing your claim that “The Bible has been transcribed, copied, translated, and retranslated dozens of times, and each time there is a chance for introducing errors or different understandings of words.” We appear to have agreement that you had vastly overstated the situation.
“I think it is an equal fallacy to say that even though men can make mistakes they somehow never made one in their vast writings about God,”
That is not an equal fallacy. It is clearly wrong to say that because men can make mistakes that they will always make mistakes. Otherwise, everything you have written is mistaken.
And your statement begs the question. It wasn’t just men writing about God, it was men writing with God. And if God is involved I’d expect the transmission to be accurate.
If not, why should I believe anything documented by Joseph Smith? How can I discern the correct from the incorrect? Are you claiming that while God couldn’t correctly inspire the original writings that He can inspire you to determine what is right? I wrote a piece about that called Dalmatian Theology.
” and in the subsequent transcriptions and translations of those writings, not to mention the dozens of scriptures that were thrown out of the Biblical canon several centuries after Christ but were revered by the early Christians at the time of Christ.”
What was in the original canon that got thrown out? Was it the parts about Jesus being the spirit brother of Lucifer rather than the creator God? Was it the part about God evolving from a man to be God?
“Unfortunately we do not have one original Greek or Hebrew manuscript from any book of the Bible.”
Yes, but when you have ~5,000 partial and full manuscripts with early datings discovered around the world you can easily discern what the originals said.
For a member of a group that claims to be Christian I find it odd that you spend so much effort (and faulty reasoning, in my view), trying to prove that the Word of God is faulty.
“But we do not believe that they have a fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ that will bring them into the presence of God. We say, bring all the truth that you have and let us add to it.”
So we can’t come to the presence of God with “just” the information from the Bible? Interesting. And you’ve just made an effort to show that we can’t know what is really true, so how can we bring any truth and how can you add to it?
If I were you I’d take the warnings of Galatians 1 very seriously.
We are to know the truth of the scriptures and the words of the prophets by the witness of the Holy Ghost. It is the Holy Ghost that testifies of the truth in all things (John 16:13). We aren’t to accept and obey the words of the prophets in the Bible or living prophets if they are not confirmed by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost will always testify of the truth. He is perfect, and will never lie. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance (Gal. 5:22-23). It is by these that we may know that the Holy Ghost is witnessing to us of the truth of the scriptures or of anything else.
What original canonical books have been lost? We can start with the ones that our current canon mentions including the book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21: 14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10: 13; 2 Sam. 1: 18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11: 41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29: 29; 2 Chr. 9: 29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9: 29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9: 29; 2 Chr. 12: 15; 2 Chr. 13: 22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12: 15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20: 34); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33: 19); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5: 9); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3: 3); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4: 16); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1: 14).
How can you believe in an inerrant Bible when it is missing all of these revered scriptures? Believing that the Bible has errors does not make one unChristian. I can still believe that Jesus is the Christ and believe that the Bible has imperfections. These two are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, believing that men make mistakes, even prophets, testifies more fully to the sinless nature and perfection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
“I know of no other Jesus than the one who was born in Bethlehem, walked in Galilee, suffered in Gethsemane and died on the cross, was resurrected on the third day, and ascended into heaven with a promise of return.”
That sounds kinda like the real Jesus. Only your Jesus isn’t the one true eternally existent God. Yours is the spirit brother of Lucifer. Yours “helps” you achieve salvation after you’ve done all you can.
The real Jesus is the eternal God in flesh who paid our debt in full (“It is finished.”). We are completely saved by his grace through faith when we trust in him. Salvation in Mormonism is based on what you do, not what He did.
Yes, you mention him, but consider the variable in the statement of saying you are saved by Jesus after all you do all you can. If you don’t do all you can, then He can’t save you. If you do all you can, then He can save you. So what is the difference in these scenarios? What you do!
The real Jesus did it all for us, and we just trust in him. Do good deeds flow from that? Of course, by virtue of us being filled with his spirit and following him because we love and trust him. But those deeds don’t save us.
“So we can’t come to the presence of God with ‘just’ the information from the Bible?” No. For God has revealed more of his word again today, has clarified points of doctrine, revealed more doctrine and scripture, and restored the ordinances and authority of his gospel, through the foundation of his church, living prophets and apostles (Eph. 2:20). We will be judged out of all the books which God has inspired man to write, not just what is currently contained in the Bible (Rev. 20:12).
Bryce,
How do I know that Mormonism is true? I’m a Christian, not a Mormon, and I believe Christianity is true. You believe Mormonism is true. How does one decipher which one is “really” true?
“The Holy Ghost will always testify of the truth.”
I agree, but that doesn’t fit what you wrote previously. The Holy Spirit inspired men to write the scriptures, but you claim they made mistakes. So how can the Holy Spirit ensure that what you write and say is accurate if He couldn’t accomplish that with the Apostles?
Re. the “lost books” – just because the Bible mentions a book doesn’t mean that book qualified as scripture.
Those books weren’t included in the canon, so by definition they aren’t canonical. So I’m not sure why you label them as canonical. I’m really surprised to read that reasoning. Is that what the LDS really teaches or is it just your opinion?
And just because those books aren’t in the Bible doesn’t mean that what is in the Bible is in error.
Since you claim the Bible – even the originals – had mistakes, how do you know that John 16:13 isn’t a mistake? Note that you can’t use scriptures to make your point, because you’d be arguing in circles.
Salvation in Christ’s gospel is based on faith and works, not faith alone, for faith without works is dead (James 2:20). If ye love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). These commandments are not grievous (1 Jn. 5:3). His commandments are not just to have faith in him, but also include gospel ordinances such as baptism (Mark 16:16).
Yes, if you don’t do all you can to obey God, he cannot save you. That is the gospel of Jesus Christ. God will not save those who remain in their sins. We must have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, and receive a remission of sins through baptism by immersion and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and endure to the end, continually feasting on the word of God and repenting daily for our mistakes. God will not save those who only serve him by their lips (Matt. 15:8; Mark 7:6).
“We will be judged out of all the books which God has inspired man to write, not just what is currently contained in the Bible (Rev. 20:12).”
You are just making stuff up now. That verse has about the Book of Life has nothing to do with additional books being added to scripture. And of course, you stated that this verse could be wrong, so why should I trust it?
And speaking more of the canon, I find it interesting that Joseph Smith’s works did not meet the criteria for the original canon.
Also, they were not transmitted as the real 66 books were and how Peter noted (2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.), but on the missing golden plates. How interesting that God allegedly used a completely different method than the rest of the Bible.
Brad,
I’ve explained that Mormons are Christians. We believe fully in Christ. So it is not a task of deciphering which one is “really” true. If you want to know which church has a fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, you may know it by the witness of the Holy Ghost, which testifies and guides us into all truth (John 16:13). Praying with faith in Christ, humility and sincerity of heart, and real intent will allow God to testify through his Holy Spirit.
“That is the gospel of Jesus Christ. God will not save those who remain in their sins.”
Are you claiming that you never sin? According to your theology that would make you a liar (1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.) or someone who isn’t saved.
“Salvation in Christ’s gospel is based on faith and works, not faith alone, for faith without works is dead (James 2:20).”
Gee, I’ve never heard that one before. Seriously, you misinterpret it just as the Catholics do: If your faith is real, then there will be works. But do the works save you? No. It is Jesus’ finished work on the cross that saves you.
You sure quote the Bible a lot for a guy who insists that it has mistakes
.
Men made the mistakes in the scriptures, not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Ghost will testify of the truth of their words.
If the writers of the Bible considered these books important enough to mention them in their books, don’t you think they were valuable?
How do I know that John 16:13 isn’t a mistake? Because I have experienced it personally. “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17).
The books that Joseph brought forth were not included in the original canon because Joseph only lived a couple hundred years ago, long after the original canon was created. But just because God has spoken one word does not mean that he cannot speak another. The Book of Mormon was also received by ancient prophets, men who spoke and wrote from God as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. The difference is that these men lived in the New World, instead of the Old.
“So it is not a task of deciphering which one is “really” true.”
Actually, it is a task of that. You claimed that we can’t come to the presence of God without following your way. But you concede that your way has errors.
“If you want to know which church has a fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, you may know it by the witness of the Holy Ghost, which testifies and guides us into all truth (John 16:13).”
I thought we couldn’t know all truth because the Bible must have mistakes?
“Are you claiming that you never sin?” No. I said that God will not save those who remain in their sins. There is a big difference.
“You sure quote the Bible a lot for a guy who insists that it has mistakes.” That’s right, because it is the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. We can know the truth of it by the witness of the Holy Spirit.
Since Brad asked about deciphering between Christianity and Mormonism, I said that that isn’t correct since Mormons are Christians. It’s a fallacy to try and decipher between the two from the start. Now if you want to decipher which Christian church has the most truth or fulness of the gospel, then that is possible.
You can know all truth by the witness of the Holy Ghost. That is independent of the Bible.
“That’s right, because it is the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. We can know the truth of it by the witness of the Holy Spirit.”
I know this is repetitive, but it is just too easy. So your claim is the the Spirit is true, but that men made mistakes when writing it down. But now you can have the witness of the Spirit to know where it was translated incorrectly.
Question 1: Why can the Spirit help you correct the original errors when He couldn’t inspire the writers to get it right the first time?
Question 2: What if someone who is an equally successful works-based Mormon claims the Spirit told them something different than you? Who should I believe?
“It’s a fallacy to try and decipher between the two from the start.”
I think that is highly disingenuous of you to write that. You try the humble “we’re all Christians” line but when I peeled back the layers you conceded that you don’t think non-Mormon “Christians” see the presence of God.
My advice is to quit being so slippery and wimpy and just defend your faith like a man. If you think your way is different and better then spell it out. But don’t lie and act like we’re the same when you are trying to convert us to your views. Real Christians aren’t to use trickery when sharing the Gospel. (1 Thessalonians 2:3 For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you.)
“Why can the Spirit help you correct the original errors when He couldn’t inspire the writers to get it right the first time?” He did inspire the writers to get it right the first time, but through time and translation meanings change and words are lost. The five books of Moses are attributed to Moses’s hand. Do you really believe that nothing that he originally wrote many thousands of years ago has been lost?
“What if someone who is an equally successful works-based Mormon claims the Spirit told them something different than you? Who should I believe?” That is why we have living prophets and apostles who are called by God to help clarify and interpret the correct meanings of the word. Scripture was given to men called of God, and men called of God help to interpret it to us today (2 Pet. 1:20-21).
This is the gospel of Jesus Christ as clearly as I can say it:
1. Have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. Repent of all your sins.
3. Be baptized by immersion for the remission of sins by one who has authority given by God to administer the ordinances.
4. Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by one who has authority given by God to administer the ordinances.
5. Endure to the end, feasting upon the word of God, obeying his every command, repenting continually of sins committed, and you will have salvation and eternal life.
Bryce,
Since you won’t cop to Mormons and Christians being different, but the same, then let me phrase it a different way, to illustrate.
Since your faith (Mormonism) and my faith (Baptist) have different beliefs about the nature of Jesus, method of salvation, etc…, then it is true that we believe differently. I believe that my beliefs are true; you believe that your beliefs are true. But we believe DIFFERENTLY about the same things or people (Jesus, salvation, etc…). Unless there are at least 2 different, yet correct, beliefs about the nature of Jesus and salvation, which I don’t think either of us would agree to be true, then there are only 3 scenarios:
a) My beliefs are right, and yours are wrong
b) Your beliefs are right, and mine are wrong
c) Both of our beliefs are wrong
There is no (d), b/c we both can’t be correct, b/c we believe differently about common terms. Given this, and given that we BOTH believe we’re right, how do we know for sure? If you say the witness of the Spirit, let me say that I’ve already prayed to the Spirit to tell me the truth about Mormonism, and I received the answer that it isn’t true, thus I remain in my beliefs. That being said, again I ask – how do we know who has truth, and who has been deceived?
As to saved by grace and works, what about Ephesians 2:8-9, which clearly says “for it is by GRACE you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, NOT BY WORKS, lest any man can boast.” If you truly believe works are necessary, how do you explain this verse (and countless others)?
“He did inspire the writers to get it right the first time, but through time and translation meanings change and words are lost.”
You are claiming that without evidence. We have already established that there has just been accurate copies from the Greek and accurate translations from Greek to English. The burden of proof is on you.
“That is why we have living prophets and apostles who are called by God to help clarify and interpret the correct meanings of the word. Scripture was given to men called of God, and men called of God help to interpret it to us today (2 Pet. 1:20-21).”
I don’t see what that proves. How do you distinguish between false prophets and true ones? I use the Bible, and Galatians 1 is an example of that. You say the Bible has errors, so what is your source?
The problem is that the Jesus of your step one is radically different than that of the Bible – http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_jesus.htm
When one looks carefully at your LDS message it is this: “Mormons are Christians, but Christians aren’t Christians.” You try to say we’re all the same when you really believe that we can’t see the presence of God. I think that is deceptive.
You said, “Men made the mistakes in the scriptures, not the Holy Spirit.” Later you said, “He did inspire the writers to get it right the first time, but through time and translation meanings change and words are lost.” I suppose that is progress. Unless I misunderstood your last statement then we agree that the originals were the true word of God. And again, with 5,000 partial and full manuscripts from different centuries and in many different locations we can be sure of what the originals said (not to mention the Dead Sea Scrolls for the OT).
Brad,
You are right that we cannot both be correct. If you say that the Spirit has witnessed to you that the Baptist church is where you should be, then you should stay there. I have had a witness of the Spirit that the LDS Church is the true church of Jesus Christ, and so this is where I remain. We cannot determine who has the truth except by an appeal directly to God, in which he has promised to answer us. But this answer is extremely personal and individual. I cannot transfer my witness to you, and you cannot transfer your witness to me. Everyone receives the answer that is correct for them in their time and place.
My belief is that the Baptist church is not the true church of Jesus Christ. But there is much good that the Baptist Church preaches and practices, and much good that the members of that church do in their communities and around the nation and world. The Spirit will witness to all the good that the Baptist Church does, for we believe that all good things come from God. But we believe that fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is only found in his restored church today. The Spirit has witnessed this to me, and so this is where I am. The Spirit will guide us and direct us into truth and goodness and righteousness until we come to stand in the presence of God, but only if we are willing.
As for your question about being saved by grace and not by works, that scripture is right. We are saved by grace, in spite of or aside from all our works. Even if I am 100% obedient in keeping God’s commandments, it will still be the grace of God that saves me. I cannot do it alone. But the commandments are required to place us in God’s good graces.
“Everyone receives the answer that is correct for them in their time and place.”
But God didn’t leave it to us to decide that way. He gave us his word. Again, I urge you to meditate on Galatians 1:8-9 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”
We don’t need to go on feelings or a “burning in the bosom.” If feelings square up with scripture, that is great. If not, then I don’t care what you feel, because it isn’t from God. Remember, Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
And note how Paul said that if they or an “angel” preached a false Gospel that it shouldn’t be believed.
Neil,
Please point to me one original manuscript that we have of the Bible, written by the hand of the original author, and I will believe that there have been no changes in the text to the current day.
How do you distinguish between false prophets and true ones? Christ gave us the answer in Matthew 7:
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt. 7:15-20).
I believe that you are a Christian. That is clear to me from our discussion. You believe in Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. If you want to say that I don’t say you’re a Christian, you can do so, but I don’t believe it.
The restored gospel of Jesus Christ is not another gospel. It is the same gospel of Jesus Christ that has been revealed from heaven and preached by holy men since the world began. Holy men, called of God, continue to preach it today. I have compared the modern-day church to the church that Christ established, and it is the same church, and the same gospel.
“Please point to me one original manuscript that we have of the Bible, written by the hand of the original author, and I will believe that there have been no changes in the text to the current day.”
I don’t need the originals. I’ve got literally thousands of manusript copies that agree on essential points. These were found in different parts of the world and in different time periods. Please explain to me how they could agree if the originals had been corrupted. How could someone run around to find all the copies and change them? Impossible. Absolutely impossible.
And by the way, we don’t have the original plates that Smith allegedly had, so I guess you don’t trust the Book of Mormon any more than you do the Bible.
If it is the same Gospel then it is redundant and we can do without it.
But the truth is that it involves a “Jesus” that is far different than the one revealed in the Bible.
You are right that we cannot both be correct.
Bryce, thanks for admitting this. This has to be the logical starting place. We’ll get back to this, but do remember that it is true – absolutely true, all the time.
If you say that the Spirit has witnessed to you that the Baptist church is where you should be, then you should stay there.
But that’s not what I said, Bryce. Recall that I said I received witness from the Spirit that Mormonism ISN’T true – not that the Baptist church is where I should be. We’re not talking about which location is correct, but which BELIEFS. And I said I received confirmation that Mormon beliefs are not. There’s a big difference. Notice that the Holy Spirit is confirming to me that Mormon beliefs are NOT correct, while you say the Spirit is confirming to you that they are. THIS is where the difference is, Bryce. More on that in a minute.
We cannot determine who has the truth except by an appeal directly to God, in which he has promised to answer us.
Bryce – there’s the problem. We’ve already established we have different beliefs, and we’ve also already established that we have each received witness from the Spirit as to those beliefs – that takes care of the “appeal to God.” But we’re still at square one, aren’t we, b/c we still can’t confirm who’s right? We can’t use the “appeal to God”, b/c we’ve each done that, and received different answers! What next? Seriously Bryce, think about that for a second. What is next?
But this answer is extremely personal and individual. I cannot transfer my witness to you, and you cannot transfer your witness to me. Everyone receives the answer that is correct for them in their time and place.
See Bryce, now you’re going back on your earlier admission that we both can’t be right. What the above is now trying to say, is that we’re each “relatively” right, right in our “own way.” That directly contradicts what you admitted to begin with. So which is it – are we both right, or is one of us truly wrong? You can’t have it both ways, but your Mormon beliefs are forcing you into a logical impossibility. I know that’s hard to understand, especially for someone rooted in Mormonism, but really take a step back and look at what you’re saying, and what your asking others to believe. It can’t work.
My belief is that the Baptist church is not the true church of Jesus Christ.
But this directly contradicts the direct contradiction you just made. Couldn’t the Baptist church be “correct for me, in my time and place”? Or is it absolutely not right, according to your beliefs? It has to be one or the other.
But there is much good that the Baptist Church preaches and practices, and much good that the members of that church do in their communities and around the nation and world. The Spirit will witness to all the good that the Baptist Church does, for we believe that all good things come from God.
But “much good” isn’t necessarily truth, and “much good” doesn’t save anyone – grace does. So which is right – Mormonism or Christianity?
The Spirit has witnessed this to me, and so this is where I am. The Spirit will guide us and direct us into truth and goodness and righteousness until we come to stand in the presence of God, but only if we are willing.
Still doesn’t solve our problem, Bryce, as explained above. We each have DIFFERENT witnesses from the Spirit, and we both CAN’T be right. What now?
As for your question about being saved by grace and not by works, that scripture is right. We are saved by grace, in spite of or aside from all our works. Even if I am 100% obedient in keeping God’s commandments, it will still be the grace of God that saves me. I cannot do it alone. But the commandments are required to place us in God’s good graces.
Either they are, or aren’t, required. They can’t NOT be required, but also BE required for us to be in God’s good graces, as you say. It’s one or the other. The over-riding theme of Scripture is that works have no saving power. If that’s truly the case, then they’re not “required” for anything.
Please, Bryce, do take a serious look at these questions and comments. I’d appreciate your responses.
I think we can agree to disagree. You have my thoughts on the subject. Thanks for the discussion.
Bryce,
Please look carefully at the logical contradiction in this statement you made:
If the restored gospel is the same as what has been preached since the world began, then why was a restoration needed?
Bryce I know at least 3 fellas that are praying for you. I really challenge you to prayerfully consider some of the challenges you’ve been given in this dialog and not just write them off because you think Mormonism is true. Our authority is the Bible alone, not a personal experience that can deceive us. It is possible to think you right and be deceived, Jesus said so himself.
The Jesus of Mormonism is not the same Jesus of the Bible and those who believe in the false Jesus of Mormonism will not be accepted by the real Jesus based on their works. All our works are like filthy rags to Him. It is because of this that the efforts to discuss this with you have been made. Please consider those motives before you write off what has been said here.
In love,
tr
Bryce,
Greetings and blessings upon you and yours. May our Lord Jesus Christ grant you wisdom and understanding that leads to perfect peace.
There have been a great many things discussed here, but I am still baffled by the idea that Latter Day Saints and Christians are somehow worshipping the same Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Let me describe my earthly father for you: His name is Lloyd
1. My father is a hard working man
2. He’s a farmer’s son with 5 brothers and 1 sister.
3. He selflessly devotes himself to caring for his family and friends.
4. He hardly ever seeks anything for himself, but perhaps some clean clothes and a hot meal after a long day’s work.
5. He is shy and quiet most of the time
6. He is a man of few words
7. He has 1 son and 1 daughter with 2 grandchildren
8. His sisters is no longer living
Now, assuming this is all anyone could ever know about my father, if someone were to describe my father any differently than how I have described him above, then I could confidently say that they:
1. Either do not know my father, but THINK they know him, or
2. Know a different man by the same name and are mistaking that person for my father.
Either way, they do NOT know MY father, but someone else. Who that someone else is, I haven’t the foggiest, but I know they are describing someone other than MY father.
So it is when I hear someone describing our Lord and Savior as say, “the spirit brother of Lucifer.” My Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ (Who happens to have the same name as your Lord and Savior) has not a brother named Lucifer, therefore when a practicing Latter Day Saint refers to “Jesus”, while believing their “Jesus” to be the spirit brother of Lucifer, they are now describing an all together different Jesus than the Jesus I know and love.
It matters not how many similarities may exist between our two Jesus’, so long as there are differences, then we are, of course, describing two different beings.
The conclusion? Latter Day Saints and Christians know two different Jesus’. Therefore they cannot both be Christians as you have claimed here today.
The question becomes, then, which Jesus is the True, Saving Messiah and which Jesus is the false Messiah?
Bryce, you certainly have a choice to worship whomever you desire to worship, but please, at the very least, understand that we Christians are talking about a completely different Jesus than Latter Day Saints are talking.
I understand that you and your brothers and sisters of the LDS church may believe your Jesus to be the true Messiah, but we Christians believe our Jesus to be the true Messiah.
As already stated above, one of us has to be wrong. But the sooner we admit that we are believing in different Saviors, the sooner we are likely to discover who the real Savior is.
Respectfully,
~el
I think we can agree to disagree. You have my thoughts on the subject. Thanks for the discussion.
Bryce, this is the scariest part of the discussion. You have been presented with numerous logical impossibilities and contradictions in your own statements and your own set of beliefs. You have admitted to certain beliefs, then changed mid-stream, then changed again. It’s the way the thought patter MUST be, for one to be a Mormon, b/c the logic just doesn’t work.
I don’t say that to be mean, but to truly ask you to consider all the above things that have been said. You yourself admitted that one must be right, and the other wrong, and logic leads to the fact that simply asking the Spirit won’t work, b/c clearly different answers have been given based upon that request, to you and to me.
If you believe truth is absolute, then one of us IS wrong. If you believe it’s relative, then that places the Mormon faith on a level no different than any other religion in the world today, except Christianity. Based on the changing nature of your comments, it’s hard to tell where you land.
I truly would ask that you consider the statements that have been made, and your responses to them, and our responses back. It’s not about “winning the argument”, but about being correct in our beliefs, Bryce. Please understand that. If you read all the above, and all you have to say is that we must “agree to disagree”, there’s nothing I or anyone can do about it, b/c at the end of the day, it is your choice. But we would ask you to truly consider what you have said, and how it just doesn’t make sense, but to hold to the Mormon faith, what you said has to be true. So where does that leave Mormonism? It leaves it incorrect, Bryce.
I don’t like that, b/c there’s a lot of Mormons who that impacts, but it’s not my choice, or my rules. It’s what God says in His Word, the Bible.
Please do consider it, Bryce.
Thanks.
Let me ask just a couple questions. How do you explain the verse in Isaiah which says that Lucifer is a “son of the morning” who fell from heaven? Why was he in heaven? Who’s son was he? What was the nature of his fall? Why did he fall? Who was he before falling and being “cast out”?
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” (Isaiah 14:12; see also Rev. 12)
Bryce, before we go on wild goose chases that ignore some central issues, it would be great if you could clarify the points I raised in my couple of posts to you.
To just let them go unanswered only leads to a couple possibilities: you have no answer, or you don’t care. From talking with you, it doesn’t appear as if you don’t care, so I’m curious of your answer. These are questions that MUST be answered, and would have to be answered, if your faith is true.
Again, I really hope you look at the contradictions and illogical leaps the Mormon faith asks people to make, based upon what you say.
Ok. If I answer your questions, then you can answer mine.
You said that you’ve received a witness that Mormonism is wrong. On that point, I believe you are mistaken. I cannot deny the witness that I have received that it is right because someone else tells me otherwise. Why would I place your testimony over my own?
You said that we still can’t confirm who is right and who is wrong by an appeal to God because of our different witnesses. On that point, I believe you are mistaken also. If the Spirit witnesses to you that you are in the right, then you better follow your witness. I have received a witness of the Spirit that the LDS Church is true, so I follow my witness. If it is truly a witness of the Holy Ghost, then you had better follow it, for it will lead you and guide you to all truth (John 16:13). If you are following the promptings of the Holy Spirit, then you are doing what is right.
Are both our churches the true church of Jesus Christ? No. Are they both wrong? No. Then one of them must be wrong and the other right? Yes. I agree. But like I said before, even if a church is wrong, the Spirit may still guide people into it because of all the good that it does, the truth that it teaches, and the way it brings them closer to God. The Spirit will testify of all truth, no matter the source.
You said, “Couldn’t the Baptist church be ‘correct for me, in my time and place’? Or is it absolutely not right, according to your beliefs?” Yes, your church could be correct for you, in your time and place if that is where the Spirit has guided you to bring you closer to God. But is it the true church of Jesus Christ, with a fulness of his gospel. No, I don’t believe so.
You said, “But ‘much good’ isn’t necessarily truth, and ‘much good’ doesn’t save anyone – grace does. So which is right – Mormonism or Christianity?” Yes, much good is truth! Good comes from God (James 1:17), and God is truth (John 14:6). Will much good save anyone? It will if they continue in it, gaining more good, and more truth until they have all of it. As I said, believing it is a choice between Mormonism or Christianity is a fallacy, since Mormons are Christians.
Yes, the works of God are required for salvation. God will not save those who do not love and obey his commandments (John 14:15), which is doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21). If we do the will of the Father, He will save us. Notice I said He, not us. We don’t save ourselves. We obey God and his counsel, commandments, and ordinances, such that He will bestow the gift of salvation upon us. It is not something that we can do alone. To say that God requires us to do nothing to save us is a huge fallacy.
Bryce,
The point I would like for you to understand is that you are placing the “truthfulness” of what you believe, on a subjective feeling rather than on an objective truth. You reveal that when you say,
The question to ask is, why would you place your personal experience, something that is subjective, over the revealed Word of God (the Bible), which is objective?
You say,
On the contraire my friend; we don’t use our personal experiences to confirm anything. We test truth by the Bible.
You seem to not understand the concept of the law of non-contradictions when you claim that,
The same Holy Spirit does not confirm one thing to one person and the opposite to another. What you “feel” is being confirmed to you by the spirit that contradicts the Bible, is not the Holy Spirit you are experiencing.
Bryce, the issue that you need to face is that you need to stop relying on your experiential confirmation of the truth of the LDS church and instead test the claims of the LDS church with the Bible. If you do this really seeking truth you will discover such things as:
1. The Bible gives clear requirements of what a true and false prophet looks like in the eyes of God.
2. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have clearly demonstrated themselves to be false prophets, not true prophets; therefore…
3. The foundation of the LDS church is not based on true prophets of God and is therefore false… which their doctrine consistently demonstrates.
Bryce you asked about Lucifer, which intrigued me:
Lucifer was an angel created by God, who in his pride wanted to “be like God,” and was cast out of heaven because of this hubris. It is of the utmost irony that this is the exact same lie that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have given to the Mormon people. Those who believe this lie will have the same result – which is what our concerns for you are.
tr
Having a witness of the Holy Spirit is objective truth. It is not a subjective feeling. It is not something that I produce of myself. The Holy Ghost is an external factor, a real being who witnesses to us of the truth (John 16:13). That is as objective as any scientific truth or physical object that I know of. Besides that, I also know that it is true from the things I have learned in my head. It is logical to me. It makes perfect sense. I have reasoned it out, and it works. I have witnesses both in my heart and in my mind.
You will never be able to determine who in the world is interpreting the Bible correctly by an appeal to the Bible itself. Everyone interprets it differently, and they all believe they are interpreting it correctly. So that will never work.
Umm, I didn’t say the part about “we can’t confirm who is right and who is wrong by an appeal to God because of our different witnesses.” Brad said that. And I disagreed with him on that point also.
The Holy Spirit will confirm truth, wherever its source. If that truth comes from the Baptist church, the Spirit will confirm it. If that truth comes from the Methodists, the Spirit will confirm it. If that truth comes from the Catholics, the Spirit will confirm it. If that truth comes from the Evangelicals, the Spirit will confirm it. The Spirit confirms truth. That is not opposites, and it is not contradictions.
I have tested the claims of the LDS Church with the Bible, and have found them absolutely valid. I know how to detect a false prophet, and Joseph Smith was not one. On the contrary, Christ said that he built his church on the foundation of prophets and apostles, which is the same church that I belong to (Eph. 2:20).
So if Lucifer was an angel created by God, was he a good angel before he sinned? What was Lucifer’s nature before he fell? Or was he always evil, even the in the very moment of his creation, which brings the question, why would God create an evil angel?
Ok. If I answer your questions, then you can answer mine.
Fair enough – but we’ll see if we can get past these first. My guess is we can’t…
You said that you’ve received a witness that Mormonism is wrong. On that point, I believe you are mistaken. I cannot deny the witness that I have received that it is right because someone else tells me otherwise. Why would I place your testimony over my own?
Bryce, I truly do want you to slowly re-read what you wrote above, and then ask yourself “does it make sense”? Here’s the key – WHY do you believe I’m mistaken? Because it conflicts with the witness you say you received? But isn’t that where we are? Doesn’t MY witness conflict with what YOU say you received? If I use your reasoning, then I can also say that mine is right, b/c I too cannot deny the witness I received, just b/c you say otherwise. Why would I place YOUR testimony over MINE? But that’s what I’m saying, Bryce – that doesn’t lead anywhere except in a big circle, b/c we’re still back where we started. You and I both say we’ve had witnesses, from the same Holy Spirit, about Mormonism – except your witness says it’s correct, and mine says it’s not. So again, we’re back to the same question – how do we know which one of us is right? You yourself just admitted that it CAN’T be the witness of the Spirit, do you realize that? Why? B/c I said I had a witness that Mormonism wasn’t true, and you said that wasn’t valid. Do you see how no actual evidence can be obtained from this “witness”, b/c they differ in their answers? Either the Spirit is one confused Spirit, and isn’t sure Himself, or one of us has been grossly deceived. That’s the only 2 answers there possibly are, Bryce.
I know you are trying to be a good Mormon, and you’re only holding to what the church has taught you. And I understand it’s hard to look at things from a non-LDS perspective. But try for a second to see it, purely from a logical discussion point of view. It just doesn’t hold water, Bryce.
You said that we still can’t confirm who is right and who is wrong by an appeal to God because of our different witnesses. On that point, I believe you are mistaken also. If the Spirit witnesses to you that you are in the right, then you better follow your witness. I have received a witness of the Spirit that the LDS Church is true, so I follow my witness. If it is truly a witness of the Holy Ghost, then you had better follow it, for it will lead you and guide you to all truth (John 16:13). If you are following the promptings of the Holy Spirit, then you are doing what is right.
Will the Spirit ever lead us into non-truth? I will assume that your answer is “no”, as mine would be. If that’s the case, then if you LOGICALLY think through what you’re saying, it CAN’T work, b/c by the fact that we’ve each received differing witnesses, and by the fact that we believe vastly different things about the same terms (Jesus, salvation, etc…), means that one of us has been led into non-truth. Thus it LOGICALLY follows that the Spirit has NOT led one of us, but one of us has been deceived. Do you see that point, Bryce? It’s a logical path that you must follow with the line of thinking you’re trying to adhere to. You can’t just “believe” it b/c the LDS church said so, you truly need to evaluate the belief to see if it even makes sense.
Are both our churches the true church of Jesus Christ? No. Are they both wrong? No. Then one of them must be wrong and the other right? Yes. I agree.
Finally, some agreement!
But like I said before, even if a church is wrong, the Spirit may still guide people into it because of all the good that it does, the truth that it teaches, and the way it brings them closer to God. The Spirit will testify of all truth, no matter the source.
So you’re saying that the Spirit WILL guide people into non-truth? Where do you see that laid out in Scripture, Bryce? In all my years of reading the Bible, I have never seen – not once – any passage that would even suggest the Spirit would lead anyone into non-truth. I’d really love to know where this comes from, based on the Bible.
Yes, your church could be correct for you, in your time and place if that is where the Spirit has guided you to bring you closer to God. But is it the true church of Jesus Christ, with a fulness of his gospel. No, I don’t believe so.
This gets back to the statement you made above, that the Spirit can and will guide people into non-truth, for some reason. Again I ask, where in the Bible does it speak of this?
Yes, much good is truth! Good comes from God (James 1:17), and God is truth (John 14:6). Will much good save anyone? It will if they continue in it, gaining more good, and more truth until they have all of it.
So good = truth? Really? But there are “good” people who do not know Christ; I know many of them. It hasn’t saved them, and won’t save them. Scripture NOWHERE says we are saved by being good – it says we are saved by grace through faith (remember that Ephesians 2:8-9 passage?). So “gaining truth” doesn’t save anybody. Again, if you have Scripture to back that up, I’d love to see it.
As I said, believing it is a choice between Mormonism or Christianity is a fallacy, since Mormons are Christians.
It’s no fallacy – you’ve been told this by the LDS church, but you really need to do some investigative work yourself to see if what they’ve told and taught you is true, Bryce. We don’t believe in the same Jesus, for one – Loving the Word had a great post on that earlier which highlighted that very topic.
Yes, the works of God are required for salvation. God will not save those who do not love and obey his commandments (John 14:15), which is doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).
Still waiting for the explanation on how Ephesians 2:8-9 corresponds to your (and the general Mormon) belief that we are saved by works. Bryce, let me tell you – it doesn’t correspond. And Ephesians isn’t the only place – there are countless other Scriptures that lead you to the same conclusion. Do some study APART from what you’ve been taught by the LDS church, and read the Bible for all it’s worth. A works-based salvation simply is NOT supported by Scripture!
If we do the will of the Father, He will save us. Notice I said He, not us. We don’t save ourselves. We obey God and his counsel, commandments, and ordinances, such that He will bestow the gift of salvation upon us. It is not something that we can do alone. To say that God requires us to do nothing to save us is a huge fallacy.
You seem to like that word “fallacy.” But despite what you’ve been taught, Bryce, it’s not. HOW good must we be? HOW MANY commandments must we obey? Can we obey them ALL? The Bible tells us we can’t, b/c we are sinners. I hate to tell you, Bryce, but you’ve missed the ENTIRE point of salvation – we can’t gain it, earn it, garner it or keep it by ANYTHING we do! That’s why Jesus died for us – Because we can’t do anything of ourselves to merit salvation!
I love talking with you Bryce, I really do. At least you don’t get mad, like many other LDS I’ve spoken with. The ability to at least stay civil is commendable.
But I truly do ask you to take a hard look at what is being said, and how contradictory it is.
Bryce,
I know you have been persuaded that your Moroni 10:4 experience is an objective standard; it however is not. It is a personal subjective feeling that confirms the errors of your heart. I am praying now for your eyes to be opened to this fact.
Bryce, please mediate on these two verses:
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jer 17:9
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;” Prov 3:5
Bryce, I don’t know how to say this plainer, but the LDS church has deceived you into thinking this is true. When the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of Scripture, the original meanings were clear to the writer and the originally hearers. They are discernible to the reader who takes the time to understand proper Biblical hermeneutics. The LDS church does not understand proper Biblical hermeneutics because they believe what Joseph and Brigham taught, and they didn’t understand Biblical hermeneutics.
The LDS church has convinced you that this is not possible and that modern day prophets are needed to understand God’s Word and His will. They rely on their personal experience just as you do, and you have accepted this channel of truth as a viable conduit for understanding God’s Word. It is not.
The Scriptures confirm truth, not a subjective supernatural experience.
What about the ones it contradicts? God is not a big man with a body of flesh and bones who was once a man as we are now and progressed to God. This teaching is inconsistent with Biblical revelation. God is Spirit (John 4:24) and those that worship Him must worship him in Spirit and Truth. God is eternal, not progressive from a sinful man. Those who teach in opposition to this are in error.
The Biblical test says one false prophecy makes one a false prophet. Outside of Joseph’s erroneous doctrines, he made many false prophecies.
He was a good angel and fell because of pride. God didn’t create an evil angel. The question to ask yourself is not to challenge God on your erroneous view of His creation tactics, but why would you believe the same doctrine that caused Lucifer to fall when you know it is an evil and prideful doctrine? No one is like God – He said so Himself. Lucifer tried and fell, Joseph and Brigham tried and failed. All those who follow them who are trying, will fail and fall the same.
tr
How do we know which one of us is correct? I already told you. Just follow the Holy Spirit, and you will be doing what is correct in your life. The Spirit will guide you to the truth, if you will let it, and if you correctly recognize it.
Will the Spirit ever lead us into non-truth? No. Which is why I believe that your witness is incorrect that Mormonism is wrong. I have a witness that it is right. But I do strongly believe that if you will follow the Spirit, you will know the truth in all things. Perhaps the Spirit is telling you that Mormonism is not right for you right now. Perhaps it is telling you that the Baptist church is where you will draw closest to God at this point in your life. Or perhaps your witness is not really of the Spirit, but of something or someone else. And yes, I conceed that this is the case for my witness also. But I can only believe in and follow what I believe to be the right way. If I don’t believe something is right, then I don’t follow it. You believe what you believe because of your experience with it. My experience is that I am in the right, so that I where I stay.
I have never once said that the Spirit guides people to non-truths. But I have over and over again said that it guides us into all truth, just as the Bible says in John 16:13. So I’m not sure why you keep trying to convince me that I am saying that the Spirit guides us into non-truth.
Yes good = truth. Isaiah 28:10 tells us that God gives precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, and there a little. If people are truly trying to be good in their life then they will eventually come to Christ, the source of all good. Good always leads to God. Whether in this life or the next, they will accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. For “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).
What would you tell me if I told you that Baptists aren’t Christians? You would say that I am wrong. Well, I’m telling you that you are wrong that Mormons aren’t Christians. I’ve done the “investigative work” both with my mind and my heart, and asking God if it be true, and He has told me that it is. I will not deny God!
Yes, a works & faith-based salvation is supported by scripture. See James 2. As for the scripture in Ephesians, I agree with it 100%. We are not saved by our works. We are saved by God, but He still requires us to obey his commandments in order to be saved. Obeying His commandments places us in a “state of grace” whereby God can then save us. It is God who does the saving when we are in accordance with his law.
“HOW good must we be? HOW MANY commandments must we obey? Can we obey them ALL? The Bible tells us we can’t, b/c we are sinners.” You are absolutely right. We can’t always obey all the commandments. But if we do make a mistake, we can repent of it, receive a remission for it, and continue on. Christ commanded us to “be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matt. 5:48). This was not idle talk or a vain commandment. We are commanded to be perfect. It will be a long time yet before we reach that level, and certainly not in mortality, but we will have to repent all along the way. God has promised that if we are faithful, and if we repent, he will forgive us – “though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool” (Isaiah 1:18). Yes, Christ did die for us. And if we love him for it, we will keep his commandments (John 14:15).
Thank you for the discussion also. I’m glad that we can have a calm conversation.
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;” Prov 3:5
That’s an interesting scripture. How am I to trust in the Lord with all my heart if I can’t trust my heart?
The number of churches today attests to the fact that no one can agree as to the proper interpretation of the Bible. That is the very reason for the different sects. It was prophets who received and wrote the Bible, and it is prophets who are required to interpret it for man.
What about the ones it contradicts? I could bring the same argument with the contradictions against the Bible that the atheists love to throw, but where would that get us?
Do you believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected with a physical body of flesh and bone? If so, does he still have a body of flesh and bone?
We do not believe in the infallibility of prophets. They are mortal men too, and make mortal mistakes. The only perfect person to live upon the earth was the Lord Jesus Christ. Again, it is by the Spirit of truth that we will know the truth of their words, whether alive or dead. We will also know whether it comes from God by the practicing of it (John 7:17). Are you familiar with the multitude of true prophesies that Joseph gave?
So if Lucifer was a good angel before he fell, then why is it such a big deal that we say that we were all brothers and sisters in that premortal life, including Jesus Christ and Lucifer. Jesus was and is good, so is it not possible that Jesus and Lucifer had a connection before Lucifer fell because of pride and became the evil one he is today?
Can we become like God? We have been commanded to (Matt. 5:48). Yes, we can truly become one with God (John 17:20-23). But we need to follow the path the Lord has set in order to become like Him. We will not supplant God the Father and take his glory away like was suggested by Lucifer. God the Father will always be our God, and glory be to Him for it forever and ever.
Bryce,
Because the Lord should be the object of your trust, not your heart. That is my point, which you seem to keep missing. You are trusting in your experience for your confirmation of the truth when you should be like the Bereans and trusting in God’s Word for confirmation of the truth (Acts 17:11). Your heart will lie to you, God’s Word will not.
Bryce, this is another logical fallacy that Joseph has deceived you on. The number of people who disagree does not attest to the conclusion that none of them are true. There are many “factions” within the LDS church, but you would not see that as evidence that none contain truth, because you believe your faction has the truth. This is a self-refuting argument that doesn’t stand up to logic.
Not all Biblical writers were prophets, and it is not prophets who have to interpret. Again, Joseph has deceived you in believing this. Have you ever questioned the motivation of people who say you can’t understand the Bible without them telling you what it says? If you could step outside of your feeling oriented confirmation that the LDS church is true, and ask yourself these types of things, you might understand better where we are coming from. God says His word is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. Why would he say this if people were required as mediators?
It is interesting isn’t it that you use atheistic arguments to defend errors in the Bible you claim you believe in. The Bible doesn’t contain errors. People contain errors when they misunderstand the Bible, like you, Joseph, and Brigham. If you understood Biblical hermeneutics you would understand this as well as the fact that we can read and understand the Bible on our own.
Yes and yes. But God the Father doesn’t and Joseph Smith lied to you when he said that he did.
God says in the Bible, not that prophets are infallible people, but that when they speak for the Lord and say “these are God’s Words,” those words are indeed infallible if God is speaking them through the prophet. If not, they were to be stoned. Claiming to speak for God is serious business in God’s eyes.
One false prophecy makes one a false prophet regardless of what they say is true.
Because we weren’t all in a “premortal life” as Joseph claimed; and angels and humans are not brothers and sisters. Jesus Christ is the Creator of everything (Col 1; John 1), not a created being like you and me. Your false worldview prevents you from coming to proper doctrinal conclusions. The fact that you believe we are brothers of Jesus and the devil is the symptoms and fruit of the false beliefs you have about the nature of God and the progression of the law of eternal progression. There is no law of eternal progression. God did not “come to be God” as Joseph claimed. He has always been God and created us all in creation. He does not have a God that went through the process before him and you will not do the same has He did in the future. Error begets error.
Jesus is not linked to Lucifer through “goodness” (wow did I really just have to type that?). Jesus is the Creator of Lucifer and does not share his nature.
We are to become like God in our words and actions and thoughts, but we do not become Deity. When you say “follow the path” you are talking about the law of eternal progression that Joseph Smith taught. It is a lie. You will not become a God of your own universe.
Meditate on this verse Bryce:
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. Isa 43:10
tr
Bryce,
I’ve never met a post-modern Mormon before Bryce, but you are getting very interestingly close to such a position:
Again, personal claims can not be testing objectively. The Word of God can be. This is why the LDS church has to say the Bible has errors and you need their prophets to understand it – so they can get you to rely on your personal experience, which Satan is glad to confirm. When we stray from the word of God we open ourselves up to spiritual confirmation of error from the evil one.
Bryce I really think you would find a problem defending this view with Joseph and Brigham. They did not talk like this. Mormonism is either true or false, it isn’t not right now but rather later, for individual people. Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on the earth, and that all other churches were wrong, corrupt, and an abomination. Very different language than you are using.
Not true, we believe what we believe because of the testimony of the Scripture, in opposition to your experiences. Experiences lie and change, the Bible doesn’t.
Bryce, in this case I would offer Biblical evidence to support my opinion, not just pit experience against experience as you are doing. Your investigative work seems to only have explored the realm of personal experience and you aren’t denying God, you are denying a personal experience with a spiritual being that claims to be God, but isn’t.
I pray that you see this and repent of these false beliefs and recognize that the blood of Christ alone covers all sins for those who repent and trust the true Christ of Scripture. The LDS Christ is a fictitious figure from the imagination of a 15-year-old boy who had an occultic experience in the woods and who did not understand Biblical hermeneutics. He has deceived millions and it is the prayer of true Christians that those who believe these errors will come to know the truth.
tr
Well, it’s been an interesting conversation. Thank you for your insights. I’m glad that we can agree to disagree.
I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church of Christ because God has told me so. I will not deny Him.
For those following along in the dialog, the last line Bryce quoted, is called “bearing your testimony” in Mormonism.
If you ever have a Mormon tell you, “I know Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God, I know that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, and I know that the church is the one true church,” they are “bearing their testimony” on you.
This happens when they have intellectually run out of steam in defending their contradictory beliefs and are retreating to a rehearsed, and quite honestly, brain-washing learned response that confirms their personal experience of the “truth” of these things.
As you can see, logic and reason are no longer useful in a discussion, and it is terminated with what they experientially “KNOW.”
When you see this, pray hard!
Bryce, may the true God of the Scriptures and the true Jesus remove the blindness from your eyes and reveal the truth to you. Your experiences are rooted and confirmed in you and what the LDS church has told you is true. I pray that you will step outside of that and see things in the light of Scripture, and that God will give you neither rest nor satisfaction in your errors until you see the real Jesus for who he is.
tr
Good points, Tony. It is a strong delusion and we need to pray for them.
Their “testimony” might make good introductory thoughts, but it is meaningless in any apologetic sense. Any other cult or religion could use it. The truth is that we can’t both be right, so one of the sources of the testimony is demonic.
Lol… you guys are funny. Believe it or not, when I say I know the church is true, it is not some kind of rehearsed response. It is called faith.
Well put Neil. I would also stress to the readers that spiritual deception is not related to intellectual smartness. Deceived people aren’t “stupid.”
I know many people in cults that are much smarter than I am on an intellectual scale. This is a matter of spiritual blinded eyes. 2 Cor 4:4 speaks of this:
“The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
It isn’t an insult to say it is demonic, it is the proper Biblical language used to describe this reality.
Pray!
tr
For a demonstrable example of what I am talking about regarding the bearing of the Mormon testimony, readers will find the link Bryce includes in his posts very interesting.
As a side note, on his page we find that he is a student of Hugh Nibley, and famous LDS apologist.
More interesting is his “About” page. Check out Bryce’s bolded “I know” statements (7 if you are counting) for an example of what I referred to in the bearing of the testimony:
http://www.templestudy.com/about-templestudy/
tr
Greetings and God’s grace upon you all. What a blessed conversation this has been in spite of the differences expressed.
This discussion certainly had the potential to become quite ugly, but there appeared to be an heartfelt love woven throughout the many challenges laid out onto the table, and everyone seems to have made a sincere effort to meet one another in grace and love. Thank you, Lord Jesus for that grace.
Although it seems that no obvious “conversions” of thought or beliefs have taken place between the two opposing parties, and that Bryce, you are content to disagree, it is, nevertheless clear that some tough soil was plowed here, and my witness to that work is ever so encouraging to my own spirit. Thank you, again Lord Jesus. I praise you for that work done in your Holy name.
Bryce, I mean this ever so sincerely, thank you for your honest time of dialog and your sharing here in this open forum. You were given much food for thought and you could have easily bowed out of this conversation early on, particularly owing to the fact you were on your own with three hearty challengers.
I will admit that your thought process and arguments, though sincere, failed to persuade me in the slightest toward your favor, but your kindness amidst your loving opposition is a testimony in and of itself. You handled yourself with grace.
Bryce, I know these next few words may hold little to no weight for you as you have also not been persuaded by the other side of the coin presented here, but I do pray that our Holy Spirit’s work begun in the deepest, most precious depths of your heart would be that which falls upon fertile soil, able to be nurtured into perfect Truth and Holiness within you, producing much fruit for the Kingdom of God as His agape testimony through His one and only Son, Jesus Christ, our once and for all atonement for all sin. God bless you and keep you in His perfect care. You are loved. ~el
Bryce,
Again, if you approach what you say from a logical standpoint, it just doesn’t hold up, friend. It just doesn’t. I know that when viewed through the lens of Mormonism it seems to make sense to you, but realize, it’s what you have been TAUGHT to believe, and the way you have been TAUGHT to test whether it’s true or not. Outside of the Mormon lens, the rest of us look at it and it’s truly not hard to see how illogical and circular the thought pattern is.
But understand this, Bryce – that’s what the Mormon church banks on. That you’ll continue to accept what they teach as true, because THEY say it’s true, not b/c it makes any logical sense. Again, I know that’s hard to see outside of the Mormon lens, but it’s absolutely true.
You say you believe it’s true b/c you have faith that it’s true. You know what? Muslims have faith that Islam is true (to them, Jesus was only a prophet, but not God), Buddhists have faith that Buddhism is true (there is no God), Jehovah’s Witnesses have faith that their beliefs are true (they deny the deity of Christ), Hindus have faith that Hinduism is true (belief in millions of gods). They all have “faith” in their “true” beliefs, yet they all believe differently. Are they all correct, Bryce? They all have “faith”, too.
You see, we are called to have faith, but it’s not a “blind” faith, but an intelligent “faith.” What I believe isn’t true simply b/c I have faith that it is – rather, I have faith in the beliefs, BECAUSE they are true. There’s a huge difference. But Mormonism requires you to NOT go in that direction.
Whether you acknowledge it or not, Bryce, the discussion above have clearly shown one thing – the logic and thought pattern in Mormonism is clearly lacking. In these discussions, when confronted with logical impossibilities or circular reasoning, you have always reverted to the tried and true “I know it’s true b/c the Spirit witnessed it to me.” But as I’ve shown you Bryce, that doesn’t work, b/c I have a witness from the Spirit as well, who has told me the opposite of what you’ve been told.
It’s subjective, and you’ve been deceived. I know you don’t acknowledge that now, and I know that for you to try to acknowledge that would be extremely difficult, b/c it would mean that everything you believe about Mormonism, everything you’ve lived your life by, all the information about the church, etc…, would be false, and you would have to admit that you were deceived. But that’s not a bad thing, Bryce – on the contrary, it would be a good thing to acknowledge that, b/c it would mean that you were truly at a point in your life where you realized that you need to have your beliefs solidly grounded on more than a feeling.
I pray you’ll truly read back over the things we’ve all said, and your responses, and test what we’ve said, not just in light of the Bible, Bryce, but in light of logic, and see if it makes sense to you. Investigate what we’ve said APART from any Mormon influence, and see if you come to the same conclusion.
God bless.
Brad,
Yes it does hold up from a logical standpoint. There aren’t 13 million members of our church. It makes logical sense to them, as it does to me. Yes, I have been taught to believe, but I have also come to find out for myself that it is true, independent of anything and everything else. You have also been taught to believe the way you do. God reveals his will to man on earth if they are willing to listen. I have heard God’s voice, and I know that He is.
Listen very carefully. I know the Church is true on my own. It is true to me, alone, regardless of everything “they” say about it. It is completely logical, rational, reasonable, and spiritual to me and my mind and heart. I know this of myself. Me, alone. You could take away all the books, the conferences, the magazines, the scholars, the apostles, the prophets, and everything else that testifies of the truth of the matter, and I would still know that it is true. God’s witness is not dependent on other people. God speaks to man individually too! He has revealed his will to me, and the Church is true. So please don’t keep saying that it is because something someone told me or taught me or something I read. I have experienced it first-hand. God communicated it directly to me. It is revelation, something of paramount importance today but which the “traditional” Christian churches completely reject. I’m not sure how they expect to be guided by a quiet God.
If people have faith, and that faith leads them to do good things, then yes, it is true. It may not be the whole truth, but it could be a lot of it. And a lot of truth is much better than no truth.
Yes, you are right. Faith is not blind. It is intelligent. But it is of things that people cannot see. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Heb. 11:1). I have plenty of evidence that the things which I know are true, but I cannot show them to you. They are not physical. They are not in books. They are not in studies. They are not in words. But it is real. My faith grows every day in leaps and bounds because it is true. Signs follow them that believe (Mark 16:17).
If you want to believe that Mormonism does not have a logical thought pattern, then you may believe so. But realize that there are 13 million others out there that also have that same thought pattern, and it makes perfect sense to them. Whether you want to believe it or not, the witness of the Spirit is true. It is real. It is not nothing. It is something. And it is not worth nothing. It is worth everything.
The witness of the Spirit is not subjective, or the scriptures have lied (John 16:13). I have not been deceived, but you are free to believe that if you choose.
Let me say this again very clearly. I know that this Church is true. Me. I. I don’t believe in it because of something someone else said. And I’m not going to denounce it just because you say I should. Why would I deny God?
Bryce,
Think about the reasons you give, brother. The fact that there are 13 million Mormons (although, this clearly doesn’t represent ACTIVE Mormons, but everyone they’ve ever had on a roll, and we all know how hard it is to get removed from a Mormon roll, you nearly have to sue) doesn’t mean much. Why? There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who all believe that they are correct. Since they have more members than Mormonism, does this make them correct, since more people believe it? What would you say to that? Probably the same thing I’d say – No. So just b/c 13 million people have a similar thought pattern, DOESN’T MAKE THAT THOUGHT PATTERN CORRECT! You really need to understand that, and if you already do, go ahead and drop the argument that is based on Mormon membership numbers.
I’m not saying the Spirit doesn’t lead us into truth, as John 16:13 states. In fact, I have argued that he does, while you have somewhat stumbled when it came to the truth/non-truth issue we discussed. But the point remains, Bryce. You and I have each received DIFFERENT witnesses, purportedly from the SAME Spirit, about the SAME church (LDS). If we have received DIFFERENT answers to the SAME question from the SAME Spirit, then where does that lead us? Again, either the Spirit’s confused at times, or one of us has been deceived. The only argument you can have against that, which is the very one you presented, is that truth is relative. If you hold to absolute truth, which clearly you don’t (otherwise your argument would be invalid), then having the same question yield 2 different answers from the same answerer is impossible. So your reasoning ONLY would hold water in a relative truth environment. Now most Mormons wouldn’t say they believe in relative truth, but maybe you’re the exception, I don’t know. But it is IMPOSSIBLE and ILLOGICAL for you to say you truly believe in absolute truth, yet hold to the arguments you espouse concerning the witness of the Spirit to both of us. Absolutely impossible.
You say you’ve examined all this on your own – but you forget that you’ve examined it with a Mormon microscope. That makes all the difference in the world, Bryce. You say “God communicated it to me” first-hand, but what you mean is that you have a witness of the Spirit, which we’ve already discussed.
In fact, since Mormonism is so logical to you, let’s try this, if we can. Put aside the witness of the Spirit for a second. Other than that, what are the reasons that you actually believe in Mormonism, and why do you believe them to be true? Remember, we’re putting aside the witness of the Spirit, so anything based on that you can’t use. What are you left with, Bryce?
Please truly consider that.
Brad,
You’re going to find out that you live in a very small world if you only tolerate those who have the same thought pattern as you.
I have said that the Spirit will guide us to truth. If you want to do what God would have you do, follow the Spirit. There are many religions in the world that have a lot of truth. The Spirit WILL witness to that, and those people ARE doing good things, and they WILL receive a heavenly reward for it.
No, I have not examined it with a “Mormon microscope.” I’ve examined it with a “Bryce Haymond” microscope. There is a difference.
What other reasons do I believe the LDS Church is true? I’ll give you a few:
1. It accords with the Bible. Everything about the Church is perfectly in line with what the Bible says. Now you will say that there are lots of contradictions, but we’ve already been there.
2. The organization of the Church is exactly like Christ said it would be in the New Testament, and just like it was in the meridian of time.
3. I have been a part of and witnessed healings by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
4. I have received and been a witness of the gift of tongues.
5. I have read the Book of Mormon, which clearly testifies of the Lord Jesus Christ, his gospel and eternal sacrifice. It also testifies that God remembers all peoples of the earth, not just those in the Old World.
6. The Church’s beliefs are in line with the thousands of apocryphal and pseudopigraphal works that are just now being discovered all around the world which attest to the validity of the gospel principles and ordinances, particularly those in the temple. See my blog.
7. The beliefs and practices of the early Christians are the same as those of the Church.
8. It makes sense to me logically. I have reasoned it out in my mind.
9. I have witnessed other miracles by obedience to gospel principles.
10. I have witnessed the fulfillment of prophecy, both biblical, and modern-day.
11. This is the only church which provides justice to those who have lived upon the earth and have not had a chance to hear or accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you realize that only a very small percentage of the inhabitants of this world have even heard the name Jesus? Do you really believe that God would cast them all to hell for that? I believe in a much more just, equitable, and loving God than that. All people who have lived upon the earth will have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, whether here or in the spirit world. Gospel ordinances are performed on their behalf in temples around the world.
12. We’re the only Church which builds temples, just as was done in Biblical times.
13. My family has been blessed immeasurably by being a part of the Church.
That’s a beginning…
Bryce, let me respond line by line, to keep myself (and us) on task here… I can get sidetracked easily!
You’re going to find out that you live in a very small world if you only tolerate those who have the same thought pattern as you.
I’m not talking about being “tolerant” of anyone – that’s not my point. And further, I never hate or dislike the person – I just happen to disagree with their beliefs, and do not believe they’re right, just as you don’t believe mine are necessarily right. What I am saying is that if you look logically at what you’re saying, it simply doesn’t make sense. But we’ll get to that…
I have said that the Spirit will guide us to truth. If you want to do what God would have you do, follow the Spirit. There are many religions in the world that have a lot of truth. The Spirit WILL witness to that, and those people ARE doing good things, and they WILL receive a heavenly reward for it.
Please show me in the Bible, where it says that we get to go to heaven and have salvation, simply for “being good” or “doing good things.” I don’t believe I’ve ever seen those verses before…
No, I have not examined it with a “Mormon microscope.” I’ve examined it with a “Bryce Haymond” microscope. There is a difference.
You’ve looked through the “Bryce Haymond” microscope, but you’ve used a “Mormon” lens. I just want to make sure you realize that.
What other reasons do I believe the LDS Church is true? I’ll give you a few:
Great – let’s look at each of these!
1. It accords with the Bible. Everything about the Church is perfectly in line with what the Bible says. Now you will say that there are lots of contradictions, but we’ve already been there.
Bryce, this is far too general of a statement to make, and we would go WAY too long in this discussion, if we REALLY address it properly. We haven’t “already been there”, by any stretch of the imagination, but again, an argument of this sort is virtually pointless, b/c you would still argue from a Mormon point of view. So let’s stick more to why that point of view doesn’t hold water. We don’t even have to “go here” to do that. But we’ll reserve the right to come back to this.
2. The organization of the Church is exactly like Christ said it would be in the New Testament, and just like it was in the meridian of time.
Exactly what is this “organization” like, that the Mormons have cornered the market on? But think of this, too – even if the “organization” of the LDS church happens to fit what you believe the NT says, if the beliefs are wrong, it really doesn’t matter. More on this to come…
3. I have been a part of and witnessed healings by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
I have also personally seen people, and heard of countless others, healed from various illnesses. Thing is, NONE of them involved anything to do with the Melchizedek priesthood. So, that means that it MUST be possible to have healings APART from the Melchizedek priesthood (we won’t even discuss that particular topic), so that in and of itself offers confirmation of nothing.
4. I have received and been a witness of the gift of tongues.
So have many people in Pentecostal, Holiness or Foursquare churches, among others, many of whom I know personally. So this doesn’t offer anything definitive, either.
5. I have read the Book of Mormon, which clearly testifies of the Lord Jesus Christ, his gospel and eternal sacrifice. It also testifies that God remembers all peoples of the earth, not just those in the Old World.
So just b/c you’ve READ the BOM, the church is true? I’ve read the Baptist Faith & Message – does that make the Baptist church the only true church? If you say “no” b/c the BF&M wasn’t inspired (and it wasn’t, you’re right), then the real issue would be, was the BOM inspired? And just b/c you’ve read it, doesn’t mean it was inspired, so that sets off a whole other set of questions, which we won’t go down at this particular time. But if you’re going to use the same logic to say the BOM was inspired, we’ll be right back here pretty soon, anyway.
6. The Church’s beliefs are in line with the thousands of apocryphal and pseudopigraphal works that are just now being discovered all around the world which attest to the validity of the gospel principles and ordinances, particularly those in the temple. See my blog.
So b/c we’ve found non-inspired writings, that back up some (but not all) writings that are in the Bible (but also go AGAINST some of them, thus the reason many of them are not canonical), that proves Mormonism is true? I don’t think so.
7. The beliefs and practices of the early Christians are the same as those of the Church.
And countless other churches, too. So they’re all true now?
8. It makes sense to me logically. I have reasoned it out in my mind.
How? This is what we’ve been going over and over, Bryce, but you’re logic is circular. It’s evident to all others on here EXCEPT you, b/c you are so steeped in Mormon beliefs, you can’t break free from them. That’s OK, it’s no different than any other Mormon I’ve talked to. But I will say that there is hope, b/c just the other night my wife and I talked to a Mormon couple who have just left the LDS church, after a lifetime in it, coming to the realization that it truly is not what it says, and is not true. So there’s always hope, Bryce. It’s NOT logical – again, re-read what we’ve discussed. You MUST talk in circles as a Mormon, b/c to get to the heart of the issue, leaves your argument lacking.
9. I have witnessed other miracles by obedience to gospel principles.
No different than #3, Bryce. So have I, so have many others I know, all of whom are NOT Mormon. So this doesn’t prove anything specifically about Mormonism.
10. I have witnessed the fulfillment of prophecy, both biblical, and modern-day.
So have I, so have lots of others. And I would be curious as to the “prophecies” you have witnessed, apart from any mentioned in the Bible, that you say provide confirmation of the truthfulness of Mormonism. That might lend some creedence to your position, or at least let us know what the “prophecies” are.
11. This is the only church which provides justice to those who have lived upon the earth and have not had a chance to hear or accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you realize that only a very small percentage of the inhabitants of this world have even heard the name Jesus? Do you really believe that God would cast them all to hell for that? I believe in a much more just, equitable, and loving God than that. All people who have lived upon the earth will have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, whether here or in the spirit world. Gospel ordinances are performed on their behalf in temples around the world.
You do believe in a different god, I’ll grant you that! And I knew you’d get to this eventually, b/c it is one of the prime reasons that different religions are invented – people don’t like what they hear, thus instead of change their beliefs to fit what is true, they model a new religion after the set of beliefs they choose to have. What about the numerous Scriptures that state that ALL have a chance, and that God loves ALL? Romans 1:18-20, John 3:16, Titus 2, and countless others. Enough is revealed about God for anyone to gain salvation, if only through creation, if people earnestly seek Him. Nobody – NOBODY – goes to hell by accident. The fact that you don’t agree with what the Bible says about salvation, doesn’t make Mormonism right, Bryce.
12. We’re the only Church which builds temples, just as was done in Biblical times.
When? The destruction of the temple occurred in 70 AD, and Hebrews speaks clearly of the fact that no more sacrifice for sins is necessary, and since we have churches (thus a place to worship), what is the significance of a temple, anyway? We are not under any portion of the old law, anyway, but under grace (read Romans to garner that). So just b/c the Mormons build temples, makes them right? Jews have temples, yet they don’t believe Christ was the Messiah. Are they right, too, since they have temples? I don’t think so.
13. My family has been blessed immeasurably by being a part of the Church.
My family, and many others I know, have been blessed immeasurably by being a part of the church we’re a part of (a Baptist church) – does that mean the Baptist church is the only true church, since it blesses us immeasurably? If you say “yes”, then you’ve admitted that Mormonism is NOT the only true church. If you say “no”, then your argument goes out the window, b/c I used the same argument you did to say my church was correct, and you would say that’s not true. See what I mean about logic, Bryce.
It’s not the “beginning”, Bryce, unfortunately. It’s the same logic that virtually every Mormon uses when asked about their faith, b/c it’s all you can rely on. But it proves NOTHING, as we’ve seen above.
Bryce, please – re-read what we’ve gone over, and look for the logical inconsistencies. They’re right there – I pray you see them.
Thanks for the post. Check out some other great examinations of Mormonism here: http://defendingcontending.com/category/mormonism/
Sincerely,
- The Pilgrim
http://www.DefendingContending.com
Like I said before, I’m glad that we can agree that we disagree, because we certainly disagree.
You asked why I believed in the Church other than the witness of the Spirit, and I have given you my answers. But my witness of the Spirit trumps all of those. I will not go against what the Lord has revealed to me, and I know it was from God.
Bryce, you’re refusing to acknowledge anything except the argument about the “witness of the Spirit”, and that’s already been shown that it can’t be proven correct by any stretch, b/c anyone can have a feeling, and say it’s from God.
You don’t even attempt to answer any of the points that have been brought up which refute any and all of the 13 points you made. You just brush them off, and say “well I still believe the witness of the Spirit”. So do I, and as I’ve said, my witness says different than yours, which is confirmation of NOTHING!
If you truly hold to the witness you believe you have from the Spirit as your best evidence, that is your choice, you are right. But what a subjective, ultimately weak evidence that is, when all others point to the fact that your beliefs are incorrect. It’s really too bad, Bryce.
You CAN break free from it, but you have to want to believe in truth, and be sure not just from a faith perspective, but an evidential perspective. At this point, you don’t want to do that. Again, that’s your choice. We’ve shown the “evidence” you say you have to be completely inconclusive of proving anything.
Really search it out, Bryce. If Mormonism is right, truly right, then if you truly search out truth apart from the Mormon church, you’ll be brought back to it anyway, if it truly is the truth, so there should be nothing to fear. If it’s not, however, then you will truly find the truth that eludes you now.
Just give it a try – you have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, Bryce!
Faith is evidence. (Hebrews 11:1)
Why don’t you have “faith” that if you jump off a 10-story building, that you’ll land on your feet and walk away? B/c the “evidence” shows otherwise, so to have “faith” in that concept would be utterly ridiculous.
That’s what I’m talking about here, Bryce. But you are still holding to the “faith” that you really CAN jump off that building. When you finally do jump, you will find that you were wrong all along, and should have heeded the evidence, Bryce. You’ll also remember that people tried to show you that you CAN’T jump off the building, but that you ignored them. But once you jump, there’s no turning back.
It’s no different here, Bryce, you’re just refusing to acknowledge it. But that refusal doesn’t make it untrue.
You’re mistaken. If God willed it, I could jump off a 10-story building and land on my feet and walk away. How do you think Peter walked on water? The evidence showed that it was utterly ridiculous. How did Christ turn water into wine? There was absolutely no evidence that it could be done. Having faith is finding out the will of God, and then doing it. If God willed it, by faith one could move mountains. There need be no “evidence” if it is the will of God.
You’re exactly right about what you say ABOUT the will of God, but you’re also working under the assumption that Mormonism is part OF the will of God, and that’s where you’re going off the beaten path, Bryce.
How is one to know whether God “wills” something or not? It was a little easier for Peter, in that Christ was physically with him, telling him what to do. We don’t have Christ in human form with us today, so we don’t get that option. What we do have is the Holy Spirit, and the Bible, the only Word of God. Neither of those would EVER contradict what the other is telling us, so we know they will work in perfect harmony.
Which brings us back to square 1 again, Bryce. You would say you know it’s God’s will, b/c of your witness of the Spirit you claim. But I say that the Spirit has witnessed to me that Mormonism is most definitely NOT true, and these 2 statements CANNOT be verified or refuted, simply by the statements alone, b/c they are only the feelings we have, given to us by a Spirit that can’t be seen. And as I’ve said, either the Spirit is mistaken, or one of us is deceived. Which you then have to ask, how do you know which one has been deceived?
Do you see the vicious circle that continues to exist, based on using the logic you espouse? It’s completely circular in nature. You may WANT to ignore what I say, and just write if off as the rantings of one who doesn’t believe in Mormonism, but you can’t logically refute what I’m saying, either, Bryce. There’s no way around it, brother.
Please continue to consider that.
How is one to know whether God “wills” something or not? That is why we need to be close to God. That is why we need to be close to the Spirit. That is why we pray. That is why we need to read the scriptures. That is why we need to be in tune with what God reveals so as to know what he would have us do. Yes, Christ CAN be with us, through the medium of His Holy Spirit. And eventually, if we are righteous, He can be with us personally (John 14:23). That is how we know his will. We may also know it by practicing what he preached: “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17). I have practiced the restored gospel of Jesus Christ for many years, and I know it is of God, and not of myself, or Joseph Smith, or any other mortal. I have lived it, and it proves out. But signs only follow them that believe first, not the other way around. Christ said that a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign to prove the gospel right, or to gain faith (Matt. 12:39; Matt. 16:4). It just doesn’t work that way.
Let me ask you this about reason and logic. What is logical about raising people from the dead? What is logical about bringing sight back to the blind and healing the lame? What is logical about calming storms by a word? What is logical about feeding thousands with five loaves of bread and two small fishes? What is logical about walking on water? What is logical about an infinite atonement? What is logical about dying and coming back to life three days later? What is logical about appearing and disappearing in the midst of people? What is logical about a physical body walking through walls? What is logical about someone who could ascend straight into heaven? What is logical about a mass of people running through the midst of the Red Sea on dry ground? What is logical about fire descending from the sky? What is logical about the sun standing still? What is logical about transfiguration? What is logical about angels? What is logical about any miracle?
Faith is not proven on logic. It can be supported by logic, but it will never be proven. Sometimes things just can’t be proven by mortal, finite, logic and reason. They are to be taken on faith. And if one has faith in something, they will know if it is of God.
The thing with a good many of those examples though, Bryce, is that Jesus personally did all those while He was here on Earth, in the flesh, and there were numerous witnesses to each of them. Numerous people saw and were a part of the miracle of the parting of the Red Sea. If something was written about it that wasn’t true, they would have known better. The transfiguration was witnessed. So forth and so on.
What you are wanting me (and others) to believe in faith, the fact that you say you have a witness of the Spirit as to Mormonism’s truthfulness, CANNOT be witnessed by others, b/c you say it happened to you personally. Same with me. Know why? B/c it’s a feeling that you have, a burning in your bosom that you “know” it’s right. But it can’t be verified, Bryce.
You keep missing the whole point. Faith IN something doesn’t make it true – but I have faith in something because it IS true. I can have all the faith in the world that 2+2+5, and not 4 like all other people think. I can go through my whole life telling others, “it’s really 5″, and truly believe it and truly have faith that it really is 5. But you know what? It’s not 5, no matter how much faith I have that it is, it’s not 5. It’s 4. Why is that? B/c it has been shown to be 4. I have faith that 2+2=4, but my faith in that equation doesn’t make the equation true – rather, I have faith in that equation b/c it IS true.
It’s the same with your beliefs, Bryce. What you want people to believe, in going along with your line of thought, is that if it’s God’s will, then 2+2 really does equal 5, if you have faith in God and it’s His will. But that’s like asking the question “can God make a rock so big that even He can’t move it?” What’s the answer to that question, Bryce? Is it yes, or no?
The answer is, the question is invalid on it’s face, b/c it is an illogical question. If I ask you to draw a triangle with 2 points, can you do it? No. Neither can God make a rock so big He can’t move it. And neither is something true, simply b/c you have faith in it. The whole world has faith in “something” – doesn’t make all those “somethings” true, Bryce.
I would truly ask you to break free, if only for a few minutes, from the circular pattern you’re in, and really look at it the way I’m explaining it to you.
The point of the examples was not if the miracles occurred, but that they did occur. Is their actual occurance logical? No. Did 2+2=4 in these cases. It would not seem so, would it. Neither is faith logical to our finite minds. We did not witness these miracles, yet we believe in them, wholeheartedly. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)
You are right. A witness of the Spirit, or faith, can’t be verified, it can’t be transferred, it can’t be shown to others, it can’t be explained, it can’t be reasoned, it can’t be shown as evidence, and it would not stand up in a court of law. But that doesn’t mean it is not true.
You are also right that faith in something doesn’t make it true. But believing in something that isn’t true will certainly prove itself false in time. The restored gospel has shown just the opposite over it’s 178 years. The Church continues to grow, the Book of Mormon is being published in record numbers, and the work rolls on. I might add that the Latter-day Saints are more well-educated in this country than the national average. These aren’t dumbies, yet it would seem that way from the way you characterize us.
While we’re talking about rocks, I might mention that Christ once proclaimed, “that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham” (Matt. 3:9; Luke 3:8). Is that logical?
The gospel isn’t always logical. You can’t prove to me that the Baptist church is true by logic. Neither can I prove that the LDS Church is true by logic. We can’t prove that the gospel of Jesus Christ is true by logic. We can’t prove that Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world by logic. These things are to be taken on faith – an intelligent, informed, prayerful, and supported faith, but faith nonetheless. We can’t reason them and prove their truthfulness by scientific methods. If we are in tune with the Spirit, it will witness to us of God’s truths, and we will know the right way we should follow.
No one who has lived on this earth since the days of Adam will receive an unjust reward in the hereafter for doing all they knew how, or could do, to follow the right. For the light of Christ is given to all men and women the moment they enter this life till the moment they leave it. If we follow it, we will be doing what Christ would have us do. If we don’t, we will be punished.
Bryce, you’re doing what nearly all Mormons do, and that is refuse to acknowledge the root issue, and continue to go on wild goose chases instead of tackle the issue at hand. That’s OK, I’m used to it, b/c as I said, nearly every Mormon I’ve talked to has done just what you do.
Realize, Bryce, that you’re staking your life – your eternal life – on a belief system that has holes so wide you can drive a truck through them. Yet you ignore all those holes, ignore all the evidence against it, ignore everything you hear from others, and you cling to the faith you say you have and the witness you say you’ve received from the Holy Spirit, and say that’s enough for you.
It doesn’t do any good to discuss anything else about Mormonism with you, b/c all else would be pointless, unless you can realize that you have done just that. Do you realize that? Do you know that you have staked eternity on a lot of “could be’s”, “might be’s”, “maybe’s”, “what if’s” and “possibly’s”?
Bryce, I believe in Christianity (separate from Mormonism) by faith, but it is not a blind faith. It is an intelligent faith, rooted in the Word of God, for which more evidence abounds than can be stated. If I were to believe Christianity were true, only b/c I “felt” it was, I ought to be pitied more than all men. But realize, Bryce, despite anything you say, that if your basis for belief in Mormonism is your witness of the Spirit (which it is), then you, too, are to be pitied more than all men.
I beg you to reconsider, before you jump off that proverbial roof, Bryce.
I have addressed all the issues which you have brought up. So I’m not sure how I have ignored them.
I have staked my eternal life on what I know is right. I’m not sure what is so wrong about that. There are no holes in the restored gospel, just perceived holes from your perspective.
The witness of the Spirit is not enough. I have studied Mormonism and other religions and denominations for many years, and it works. It is true. It fits.
When will you come to understand that faith is evidence? When will you know that I can have a perfect knowledge of what is true by the Spirit? I don’t base my beliefs on a bunch of “what ifs,” and “possiblys.” I know these things are true.
My faith is not a blind faith either. It is supported by quite a bit of evidence, but you don’t choose to see it. My faith in the Church is based on the Spirit and all the experiences that I’ve had with it, and all the studies that I have done over the years. I don’t base everything on the witness I’ve received of the Spirit. I have had countless other witnesses also.
Just know that if you stay close to the Spirit, you will be doing what is right. The Spirit will guide you into all truth (John 16:13). That is what the God promises.
I have addressed all the issues which you have brought up. So I’m not sure how I have ignored them.
Actually, Bryce, you haven’t. I gave specific rebuttals to all 13 points you had, none of which offer specific evidence of anything other than your point of view, which we already knew. You’ve not addressed a single one of those, nor have you been able to address the fact that the Spirit has given you and I a different answer to the same question, which either means the Spirit’s unsure, or one of us is deceived. Nor have you been able to answer that if one of us is deceived, how we know who it is, since it can’t be the Spirit’s answer who can tell us, since that is what led to the conflicting information in the first place! So no, you haven’t addressed them at all – you’ve ignored them, and continued with the party line, but again Bryce, I’m used to that when talking to LDS.
I have staked my eternal life on what I know is right. I’m not sure what is so wrong about that. There are no holes in the restored gospel, just perceived holes from your perspective.
You HAVE staked your eternal life on what you believe, you are correct in that. And there’s nothing wrong with staking your eternal life on what you believe – I’ve done the same thing, as have all Muslims, Buddhists, Scientologists, etc… The problem lies, Bryce, when you stake it on incorrect beliefs. I know you don’t believe you have, but all evidence says otherwise.
The witness of the Spirit is not enough. I have studied Mormonism and other religions and denominations for many years, and it works. It is true. It fits.
Don’t know what you’ve studied, Bryce, but I’d love to find out exactly why you think Mormonism “fits”, when the evidence just doesn’t support it.
When will you come to understand that faith is evidence? When will you know that I can have a perfect knowledge of what is true by the Spirit? I don’t base my beliefs on a bunch of “what ifs,” and “possiblys.” I know these things are true.
But wait – here you say that you can “have a perfect knowledge of what is true by the Spirit”, yet just above you said that “the witness of the Spirit is not enough?” Which is it? Is it enough, or isn’t it? Do you see how the circular thinking gets you into binds, Bryce, b/c the logic just doesn’t hold up? The Spirit is not enough – look at 1 John 4:1 “test the spirits to see if they are from God, b/c many false spirits have gone out into the world.” Don’t you see that we can’t just rely on the “witness of the Spirit”, b/c we can be deceived, Bryce? You must test what you believe is right, to see if it holds up. The Bible commands it. You tried to do that, to give me 13 “other” evidences that Mormonism was true, yet all 13 fail, b/c none of them are specific to Mormonism being true, Bryce. Please see – it just doesn’t work.
My faith is not a blind faith either. It is supported by quite a bit of evidence, but you don’t choose to see it.
What evidence am I missing, that I don’t see, that proves Mormonism to be right? I’d love to know, Bryce. Please provide. It has to be something other than any of the 13 points you’ve already tried, b/c they simply don’t do it, no matter what your church has told you.
My faith in the Church is based on the Spirit and all the experiences that I’ve had with it, and all the studies that I have done over the years.
The Bible has shown that we need to test the spirits. You talk about these “experiences” and “studies” you’ve done that also confirm it – what are those, Bryce? Again, they would need to be different than any of the 13 points, or you haven’t gained any ground, b/c those don’t prove anything other than show what we already know you believe.
I don’t base everything on the witness I’ve received of the Spirit. I have had countless other witnesses also.
It’s hard to tell, Bryce, b/c sometimes you say the Spirit is enough, and other times you say it’s not, so I’m not sure which this is. But if you DO have other “witnesses”, I’d love to hear what they are that really show the truth of it, in something other than a subjective way.
Just know that if you stay close to the Spirit, you will be doing what is right. The Spirit will guide you into all truth (John 16:13). That is what the God promises.
It’s actually what “God” promises, not “the God” – because “the God” implies there’s more than one, which the Bible clearly says there is not (but that’s just one more difference, right?). Either way, you still must test the Spirit, if we’re REALLY looking to follow what Scripture says. And I’d love to know what objective evidence you have to show that Mormonism is true, other than the 13 subjective evidences you’ve tried to provide already.
I have staked my eternal life on what I believe and know is right. You have done the same thing. You can’t “prove” to me that I am wrong any more than you can “prove” to me that you are right. Your reasoning sounds more circular than that which you claim I have. You say that I can’t know the Church is right, but you ardently claim that you know that it isn’t. How is that?
What have I studied? Well, you could start with “A Marvelous Work and a Wonder” by LeGrand Richards. If you want to see more that I have studied, please see my blog.
Yes, I can have a perfect knowledge of what is true by the Spirit and also have witnesses by supporting evidence. I must live what I know to be true if it be a true knowledge. Faith without works is dead. But all the evidence in the world will not “prove” the gospel is true. That witness comes only by the Spirit.
What evidence is there? Again, see my blog.
Test the spirits? What did John say?
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world” (1 John 4:1-3).
The way we test the spirits is by seeing if they witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ, which the Prophet Joseph Smith and the restored gospel does in leaps and bounds.
When I wrote, “That is what the God promises” I originally wrote “That is what the scripture promises.” I changed it to God, since he revealed the scripture. I failed to remove the word “the”.
What other evidence is there? If you don’t want to look at my blog, why don’t we start with the redemption of the dead. How is God a just God if all those who have lived upon the earth without a knowledge of Jesus Christ will be damned? Will not God provide an opportunity for all these to accept or reject the gospel? Indeed, he has. Christ preached to the spirits in spirit prison (1 Pet. 3:19; 1 Pet. 4:6). Why would he preach to those that are dead unless they had opportunity to accept what he preached to them. This was not vain preaching.
I have staked my eternal life on what I believe and know is right. You have done the same thing. You can’t “prove” to me that I am wrong any more than you can “prove” to me that you are right. Your reasoning sounds more circular than that which you claim I have. You say that I can’t know the Church is right, but you ardently claim that you know that it isn’t. How is that?
Because there’s no evidence that the LDS Church is the “true” church, Bryce. I CAN prove to you that you’re wrong, but it doesn’t do any good unless you let go of what you believe and accept the proof. You’re refusing to do that. And you think MY reasoning is circular? See, Bryce, now you’re truly lining up with what most Mormons do, which is when the going gets tough, and REAL evidence gets asked for (that isn’t available), you start pointing fingers, trying to turn the questions around, and evade the topic. Like I said, it’s typical. I believe it happens either b/c the person is ill-equipped to answer the questions, or b/c the evidence doesn’t exist, or a combination of the 2. Don’t know which it is in your case, yet, but you are definitely ducking the specific questions and rebuttals.
What have I studied? Well, you could start with “A Marvelous Work and a Wonder” by LeGrand Richards. If you want to see more that I have studied, please see my blog.
Ah yes, MWW by Richards. It’s funny how Mormons always seem to gravitate to that book as further “evidence”, yet whenever a non-Mormon likes to bring up things written in other Mormon writings (J of D, A of F, or other quotes attributed to Mormon leaders, especially McConkie), they are told that those can’t be used, b/c they’re not “official” doctrine. If that’s the case, then you can’t use MWW either, b/c it’s not “official” doctrine, but merely the musings of Richards. Are you now saying that ALL sources are fair game, and ANYTHING can be used, if I so choose, against Mormonism? Just want to clarify.
And I have checked your blog, but it appears to be mostly about temple study, something we’re not even talking about here. If you truly DO have evidence – real, hard, generally accepted evidence – that the Mormon church is true, then provide it. Don’t just refer to a blog site about temple study.
Yes, I can have a perfect knowledge of what is true by the Spirit and also have witnesses by supporting evidence. I must live what I know to be true if it be a true knowledge. Faith without works is dead. But all the evidence in the world will not “prove” the gospel is true. That witness comes only by the Spirit.
Wrong – if that were the case, then you could throw 1 John 4:1 out the window, b/c if the Spirit’s witness were unmistakable and correct, and nobody ever mistook a “witness of the Spirit” for something else, there’d be no need to “test the spirits to see if they’re true”, now would there? So are you saying the Bible is wrong, and we should rely ONLY on the witness of the Spirit? Or do you agree with the Bible, and believe we actually need to test? If you agree, then your previous statement that “that witness [that Mormonism is true] comes ONLY by the Spirit” is incorrect.
What evidence is there? Again, see my blog.
Again, I have, and there’s not much there, except about temple study. You haven’t shown anything, nor have you responded to any rebuttals offered. Standard Mormon response of ignoring what can’t be explained.
Test the spirits? What did John say?
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world” (1 John 4:1-3).
The way we test the spirits is by seeing if they witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ, which the Prophet Joseph Smith and the restored gospel does in leaps and bounds.
Which Jesus, Bryce? The one of Mormonism, or the one of Christianity? Yes, they’re different. See Loving the Word’s post on May 1 for a great explanation of that. Muslims believe in Jesus too, they just don’t believe correctly about Him. Lots of people believe that He existed, but don’t believe correctly ABOUT Him. There’s a huge difference, Bryce.
What other evidence is there? If you don’t want to look at my blog
I tried – not much there that I found. That’s why I’ve asked – repeatedly – for you to provide some. Maybe you will.
why don’t we start with the redemption of the dead. How is God a just God if all those who have lived upon the earth without a knowledge of Jesus Christ will be damned? Will not God provide an opportunity for all these to accept or reject the gospel? Indeed, he has. Christ preached to the spirits in spirit prison (1 Pet. 3:19; 1 Pet. 4:6). Why would he preach to those that are dead unless they had opportunity to accept what he preached to them. This was not vain preaching.
Sure, why don’t we start there? How do you reconcile this with Romans 1:18-20? Let’s start there.
My blog is all about showing how the temple rites of ancient times, both Old Testament and New Testament eras, have been restored today in the temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The symbolism and meaning of all the ordinances has all stayed the same, because God is the same. If you don’t want to see that as evidence for the restored gospel, then that is your choice.
Romans 1:18-20 says, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”
This scripture is not talking about everyone who has ever lived on earth since Adam. It specifically says it is those “who hold the truth in unrighteousness,” for “God hath shewed it unto them.” For these who know the truth, and yet are unrighteous, there are no excuses and there are no second chances. Verse 21 makes this clear, “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”
But what about all those who had not the truth to begin with? What about those who never heard about the gospel or Jesus Christ in their lifetime? What about those who never had the opportunity to have faith in Jesus Christ and obey his gospel commands and ordinances? Will these be condemned?
My blog is all about showing how the temple rites of ancient times, both Old Testament and New Testament eras, have been restored today in the temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The symbolism and meaning of all the ordinances has all stayed the same, because God is the same. If you don’t want to see that as evidence for the restored gospel, then that is your choice.
It’s NOT evidence for anything, Bryce!! Jews have temples today – are they the true church too? Incidentally, I asked this very question of you earlier, which you ignored, after refuting the 13 “evidences” you gave for Mormonism. Further, where does the Bible speak of us being saved by ANY ordinance at all? How are we saved, Bryce? We are saved by grace through faith, as Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly says. We’re not saved by works, we’re not saved by any temple rituals, or by any church – we’re saved by grace. Period.
If you think your blog offers evidence of the truthfulness of the BOM, you think too much of your own blog. It may be interesting to some, but it provides EVIDENCE to none. Again I request – where’s the hard, generally accepted evidence? As of now, you’ve been unable to provide ANY, Bryce. Keep that in mind. That ought to signal something to you, as it would to any rational, logical human being.
This scripture is not talking about everyone who has ever lived on earth since Adam. It specifically says it is those “who hold the truth in unrighteousness,” for “God hath shewed it unto them.” For these who know the truth, and yet are unrighteous, there are no excuses and there are no second chances. Verse 21 makes this clear, “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”
Nope. Isn’t anyone who is not saved, by definition, “unrighteous”? That is how the Bible would term them. And we’re all sinners, even after we’re saved – though after we’re saved, we’re sinners saved by grace, rather than sinners lost. No, my friend, you have bought into the Mormon interpretation of this verse, which is simply not correct. If that were correct, then you and all others, as well as all Christians, ought to immediately suspend any efforts to convert others, b/c they would be better off NOT having heard the gospel, than having heard it and rejecting it. And since the statistics say that not all who hear it accept, by simply telling them, they are being condemned. Under your “interpretation”, of course. So it doesn’t even make sense, Bryce.
But what about all those who had not the truth to begin with? What about those who never heard about the gospel or Jesus Christ in their lifetime? What about those who never had the opportunity to have faith in Jesus Christ and obey his gospel commands and ordinances? Will these be condemned?
This verse makes it clear, Bryce – all have the opportunity. Even if nobody has come to tell them, enough has been revealed in God’s creation for them to know the truth. You are doing exactly what Joseph Smith did – you don’t like what the Bible says, and it’s easier to come up with an alternate meaning, so you do it. Doesn’t make it true, just b/c it’s more convenient or easier to swallow, Bryce. Remember that.
Again, where’s your evidence? Your lack of it is really showing.
Actually, no, the Jews don’t have temples today. They are hoping to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, which has become known as the third temple, but have been unsuccessful as of yet.
Where does the Bible speak of ordinances? How about Mark 16:16 – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” It takes baptism to be saved, which would mean that it is a saving ordinance of the gospel.
Or the day of Pentecost: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38). Repenting of sins, being baptized, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost are the first steps that Peter told those who believed in order to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved. Baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are received through ordinances.
We are saved by grace after all we can do (2 Nephi 25:23), which is the same as saying we are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). And since faith without works is dead, we must have works AND faith (James 2:20). One or the other will not save us. We must have both. Faith is determined by one’s works, the works making faith perfect (James 2:22). Thus we become justified through faith AND our works, and not by faith only (James 2:24).
Isn’t anyone who is not saved unrighteous? No. There have been millions who have lived on this earth who were not “saved” in their lifetime, who were good people. They did everything they could to do right. But they never had the opportunity to embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ because it was just non-existent in the place or the time they lived. There was no preaching of Jesus Christ for the majority of human history, and when it was preached it was in comparatively small geographical areas, mainly in Palestine. Will God condemn all these millions (perhaps billions) of people for never having the opportunity to have heard his gospel and participate in its ordinances? No. He has provided a better way for them.
Here are a couple good links with commentary on whether we can trust our heart or not: here, and here.
This is also good commentary: here.
Actually, no, the Jews don’t have temples today. They are hoping to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, which has become known as the third temple, but have been unsuccessful as of yet.
Either way, this would be ONLY for the Jews, and nobody else, as people in America, for example, wouldn’t be worshiping in the temple. Where in the Bible does it say that to properly worship God, we must do so in a temple? If you think it does say that, that just further underscores the mistakes Mormons make in interpreting the Bible.
Where does the Bible speak of ordinances? How about Mark 16:16 – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” It takes baptism to be saved, which would mean that it is a saving ordinance of the gospel.
I didn’t say the Bible doesn’t speak of ordinances – just that it doesn’t say they save you. What about the thief on the cross – he clearly wasn’t baptized, was he? What about John 3:16 – mentions nothing about needing baptism, only belief? What about Ephesians 2:8-9, which mentions only grace being necessary? In fact, Mark 16:16 says who is condemned? The ones who believe not, NOT the ones who believe not NOR are baptized. It just doesn’t add up, Bryce – but I agree that you would have to interpret the Bible that way to correspond with Mormon beliefs, which is why they do. But you need to look at the WHOLE Bible, not just particular verses.
Repenting of sins, being baptized, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost are the first steps that Peter told those who believed in order to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved. Baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are received through ordinances.
You’re sticking to the Mormon party line on this, Bryce, but have you truly investigated this for yourself, using the entire Bible and what it says, or have you just listened to what you’ve been taught?
We are saved by grace after all we can do (2 Nephi 25:23), which is the same as saying we are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).
Absolutely not the same. Bryce, this is another instance of you believing what you’ve been spoon-fed in the church. How can you even think these say the same thing? Ephesians talks about “doing” NOTHING – in fact, it talks specifically about NOT doing anything, so we can’t boast! But Nephi (which I don’t acknowledge as Scripture anyway, b/c nobody, including you, has anything to back up that the Mormon scriptures are true) says it is faith, AFTER we have “done” what we can. It’s 2 different concepts entirely. You really need to check at the door what the church has taught you, and look into everything the Bible really says. You’ll see some remarkable differences, Bryce.
And since faith without works is dead, we must have works AND faith (James 2:20). One or the other will not save us. We must have both. Faith is determined by one’s works, the works making faith perfect (James 2:22). Thus we become justified through faith AND our works, and not by faith only (James 2:24).
Bryce, as is the case with most Mormons I know, there is very little emphasis on how to PROPERLY interpret the Bible. There is a correct way, and a wrong way, and you use the wrong way. You MUST interpret the Bible in light of the ENTIRE Bible, not just a few passages, or you end up with contradictions, such as you (and the LDS church) have with the faith vs. works doctrine. Your interpretation is completely wrong, and CANNOT be reconciled with Ephesians 2:8-9 in any way, shape or form. I’d be happy to help you apply proper hermeneutics, if you wish, but the Mormon church in general does not. Which is why they misinterpret much of what is in the Bible.
Isn’t anyone who is not saved unrighteous? No. There have been millions who have lived on this earth who were not “saved” in their lifetime, who were good people. They did everything they could to do right.
Really? Have ALL people sinned? Yes (Romans 3:23). Is sin righteous, or unrighteous? Unrighteous, by any definition. Are we “saved” by being “good”? No (Eph. 2:8-9, for one, but if you disagree, show me where in the Bible it says we are saved by being good). It doesn’t matter how hard we try, Bryce – we can never be “good” enough to have salvation on our own.
But they never had the opportunity to embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ because it was just non-existent in the place or the time they lived. There was no preaching of Jesus Christ for the majority of human history, and when it was preached it was in comparatively small geographical areas, mainly in Palestine.
Why do you believe this? Jesus is as much present in the OT as He is in the NT. As you said, the OT looks forward to the cross, the NT looks back at it. How were the OT saints saved? Through faith in God and the Redeemer that would come, who was Christ. By saying that people don’t know, you’re saying that God is not all-powerful, that He can’t make His Word known to all men (as He says He does), so you’re really denying the ability of God to ensure that all have a chance. Do you deny God’s power, Bryce?
Will God condemn all these millions (perhaps billions) of people for never having the opportunity to have heard his gospel and participate in its ordinances? No. He has provided a better way for them.
No, nobody will be condemned for not hearing, Bryce, b/c ALL have the opportunity. Again, see Romans 1:18-20, but interpret it correctly. There’s no “other” or “better” way provided for anyone, b/c there is only one way to the Father, and that’s through Jesus (John 14:6); the Bible speaks of no alternate ways, and if it is inferred that it does, that would directly contradict John 14:6 anyway. Further, as I explained earlier (which you didn’t comment on), if you TRULY believe that people have an “out” if they haven’t heard, then tell the LDS church to stop evangelizing NOW! People would be better off if they DON’T hear, so they’re not then held responsible for their choices.
Really, Bryce, you need to start examining these things outside of the Mormon lens a bit, and not just take as truth what they’ve told you. Look into it.
Bryce, as to the links you posted, which supposedly show that it’s OK and correct to rely on our hearts for a witness of the Spirit, you just let me know if you REALLY want to get into that or not. I’ve read a good bit of Jeff Lindsay’s stuff, and it’s poor scholarship (remember what I said about improperly interpreting the Bible, and using verses here and there to try and prove your point, instead of the WHOLE of the Bible?). And the other 2 “links” are worse.
But if you really want to get into that, we can. I’ve already shown you that a witness of the Spirit can’t be definitive, b/c it has given both you and I DIFFERENT answers to the SAME question, and we have no way to know who is right!! Bryce, it’s just common sense, but you’re ignoring it, b/c the LDS church has told you that they REALLY know the truth, and that you can’t doubt it, b/c if you become an apostate Mormon who truly leaves the faith, after having received the truthfulness of the restored gospel, then you will be destined to Outer Darkness. It’s got a lot of Mormons scared to leave, b/c I’ve talked to them, Bryce. I just recently talked to a Mormon couple who have just left the church, and they said probably 10% of the church has serious questions, but are afraid to ask them, for fear of what will happen. That’s truly sad, Bryce – but I’m here to tell you, that if you question it, and if it really is true, you have nothing to lose anyway, right? But if it’s not true, you have EVERYTHING to lose if you DON’T question it!
Jesus and the early Christians worshipped in the temple, if that is any indication. Jesus called it his Father’s house. He threw out the moneychangers when they were defiling it. (Matt. 21:12; Mark 11:15; Luke 19:45; John 2:14; Matt. 21:13; Matt. 24:1; Luke 1:22; Luke 2:27; Luke 2:46; Acts 2:46; Rev. 3:12; Rev. 7:15; Rev. 11:1)
It doesn’t say ordinances save you? Read the verse again, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved…” (Mark 16:16)
What about the thief on the cross? Christ said that he would be with him in paradise. That is a different place than the kingdom of God. There is a spirit world where all the spirits of mankind go to await their resurrection and judgement. That is the place that Christ is referring to. Christ was not giving the thief some premeditated judgement that he would be with him in the highest kingdom of God.
What about John 3:16? What do you think we should do if we believe in Christ. Belief is not enough! If we truly believe in Christ we will DO as he has asked us to do. When those who were present on the day of Pentecost believed Peter immediately preached that they should repent and be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Belief alone does nothing if it is not followed by obedience to God’s commands.
What about Ephesians 2:8-9? This does not say that grace only is necessary. Read the whole verse, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” There is a qualifier in there – faith. And as I’ve already discussed above, faith does not stand alone if it is truly faith. Faith will lead us to do the things God has commanded us to do.
Have I investigated this for myself in the Bible? Yes. In fact it talks about Peter’s preaching on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
I’m sorry but having faith and doing something about are not different things. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith with my works. (James 2:18)
Yes, this can be reconciled with Ephesians 2:8-9, which I have done many times. If we have faith, then we will do something about it, and that “doing” is following God’s commands.
I didn’t say if all people have sinned. We’re talking about if all people are unrighteous. Of course all people are sinners, but if they are doing everything in their power to do what is right, they are not unrighteous. If you are repenting continually, you are not unrighteous. Those that obey God, follow His commandments, love Him, and strive to do what is right, are righteous people! There is a difference. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Cor. 5:21). Yes, the righteous, or being “good,” are the ones who are saved – “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” (1 Pet. 4:18).
You are right about never being good enough to have salvation on our own. God is always the one who will do the saving, but we must follow God’s commandments if we expect him to do that. God will not save those who do not obey his commandments!
Yes the OT talks about Christ as does the New. But what about the people who lived in Africa, or Russia, or Australia, or Canada, or South America in ancient times? None of these received the word of God in the Old Testament or in the New. Both of these books took place in the Middle East, Egypt and Mediterranean areas only. There are many people, even today, who live in remote areas of the world and know not anything about Jesus Christ. Will God condemn these?? You are right that God WILL make His word known to all men, but it is clear that not all men will have opportunity to receive it in this mortal life. For them, they will receive it in the spirit world, and if they accept it, they will be given every opportunity to have faith, repent, be baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and every other blessing and ordinance that is afforded to those who do have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortality. This is the way that has been provided for these, and it is the same way for all, for there is none other name under heaven whereby man may be saved than in and through the name of Jesus Christ, the Lord omnipotent (Mosiah 3:17).
Every single person who has lived upon the earth will have the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and accept or reject it, whether here in the mortal body, or in the spirit world. That is not an “out”. Everyone will be held responsible for their choices, but ONLY if they are given the choice to begin with.
Again, you are talking about common sense, logic, reasoning… You will never come to a knowledge of God if you continue to rely on your own finite mind to try to understand God’s will for you. My favorite quote from the links is this – “I agree that human thoughts and intents and plans are weak and fallible and often wicked. But we’re asking people to turn away from human influences and turn to God, in prayer, seeking inspiration through the spirit. Is praying to God wrong? Is seeking revelation from God wrong? That’s almost the position that the anti-Mormons take. And in place of inspiration from God, what do they offer? Their human thoughts, human logic, human interpretations of scripture and human creeds, which came from the hearts and minds of humans. Hmm…. What are the anti-Mormons so afraid of? They virtually beg others to NOT pray. Do they have so little faith in God that they fear souls will be lost if people pray to Him and seek His Spirit to guide them in matters of faith? They deny the Holy Ghost; they deny revelation from God.”
No, those that leave the Church do not go to Outer Darkness. That is a lie from the anti-Mormon camp. The only persons that will go to Outer Darkness are those who have committed the unpardonable sin and have therefore become Sons of Perdition. For this there is no forgiveness (Matt. 12:31; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10; Heb. 10:26).
The emoticon replaced the scripture reference. It should have been James 2:18
Bryce,
I’ll leave you alone. As I said, I speak to many Mormons, some of whom are open and willing to investigate the church, and some of whom aren’t. Just as with the couple I mentioned who recently left the LDS church, it took a while, but they did finally come to realize, through various ways and reasons, that the church isn’t true.
You and I don’t agree, and although we must agree to disagree, I don’t like it, b/c I know where it leaves you. But, at the end of the day, only God can change hearts, not me.
You’ve been shown some things that you really do need to look into. We could talk forever, but until you’re ready to view things outside the Mormon lens, it won’t matter.
I’ll continue to pray for you, Bryce, as I do for all Mormons, and as I and others continue to try and minister to the LDS church. I do pray that you will come to a true understanding of salvation before you lose the chance.
Thank you for the conversation.
Thanks for the discussion Brad. I hope you have learned more about what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really believes, because there is a lot of misinformation and distortion out there about us. But that is a fact of being Christian – “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” (2 Tim. 3:12). The Adversary will do everything he can to stop the work of God from rolling forward. But God has promised that his kingdom on earth will never again be taken from the earth, till the day when Christ comes in clouds of glory to rule and reign on earth.
Just note that I did not join this conversation to try and convert anyone. I joined it in response to an attack on my faith, a faith which I know to be true, and which I will forever sustain and defend.
Stay close to the Spirit, and you will be doing what God wants you to do. Do not trust in man, the arm of flesh, human minds, logic, reasoning, human interpretations, etc. (Jer. 17:5). Those will never lead you to God. He wants us to trust in Him, and none else (Ps. 56:4).
[...] encourage people to read the comment thread at this post about Mormonism relative to Christianity. There was an extended dialogue between a Mormon and several Christians that highlighted many of [...]
I think you are all crazy…stop it with the friggin religion talk. THERE IS NO GOD!
Gee, anonymous, since you put it that way.
Seriously, if your worldview is true, then your Darwinism is what causes us to believe there is a God. Sorry, we just can’t help it. And it means there is no such thing as morality, so please don’t complain when I come by later to steal your stereo.
Now Neil, that would be a violation of the 8th commandment, and you know it is written on your heart and in your conscience now don’t you?
tr
Sorry, I forgot!
I just watched this very well done video on Mormonism and the archaeological evidence that supports the faith. I thought this link would be a good thing to put here. It’s long, but worth it to the end. Grab a snack, get comfortable and press “PLAY”.