By posting this I am not making a statement against the necessity of addressing the porn problem, nor am I making a statement against helping those with this addiction; but I am making a statement on how we are to do it.
Specifically, I just don’t think this is how Christians should go about doing it:
From Chris over at “A Little Leaven,” (which is a perfect name for this):
“Imagine showing up to church next sunday and finding a 30 foot high erect phallus on top of your church or in the church parking lot announcing a sermon series on Pornography. “Absurd and ridiculous”, you say. “No Christian Church or Ministry would ever resort to something as shameful as a giant phallus”, you say. Sadly, you’d be wrong. (Warning: Explicit Link)
According to Wally’s Website:
Mike and Craig of XXXchurch dreamed up the idea of Wally one afternoon in sunny southern California. XXXchurch exists to bring awareness, openness, accountability and recovery to the church, society and individuals in the issues of pornography and to begin to provide solutions through non-judgmental and creative means. XXXchurch is here to make you think, react and to decide where you stand on the issues of porn. We’re not here to sling mud, but to shove the envelope and try and do some good.
Call us old fashioned but the church doesn’t need marketing gimmicks in the form of a giant inflatable phallus to fight porn. The church needs to get back to preaching God’s Word and the message of Christ Crucified for Sinners.”
Amen Chris!
Filed under: Apologetics, Biblical Counseling, Church Life, Church Marquees, Emergent Church, Evangelism, Family, Purpose Driven Madness, Seeker Sensitive
I agree. I’m a supporter of XXXChurch and most of their methods, but I think this one was in bad taste even given the audience they’re trying to reach. I’m glad XXXChurch is out there taking risks and reaching the people that others aren’t, even if they sometimes cross the line.
That’s horrible.. I seriously can’t believe they would resort to that to get attention. Porn is a huge problem, and I am glad when people do take a stand against it. However, like you said, we need to take it back to the cross of Christ.
But come on people… why potentially cause some of your brothers to stumble in order to get them to take a look at the issue (no pun intended). Ridiculous.
I’m actually speechless…..
I just blogged about Pete the Porno Puppet my self, but this…. I don’t even know what to say. That’s disgusting.
I’m all for talking about the issues surrounding pornography, but this is too far.
This is stupid on at least a couple levels. It is so bizarre that it makes you wonder if a fraud infiltrated the church for the sole reason of making it look stupid. Wow.
ugghhh…when there are just so many things wrong, it’s hard to know where to start…..this is what happens when you buy into the philosophy that the church must use worldly means to lure people to “church”….there are no lines and anything goes….it’s all in the name of “helping people”, “doing good” and “bringing people close to God”….
I feel like puking right now. What next? Bubbles the Boobs? Women have issues within the porn industry too. Can’t wait to see what they come up with to encourage women to be more modest lest they continue to stumble men while in their endeavor to protect their wally’s.
I am so disgusted by this. I think I just need to go take a shower and fast and pray or something. What?
Oh God, That you have not lifted your hand of protection from us yet is beyond me. You could have turned your back on us long ago, yet you wait, so patiently for us to figure it out, to figure out that we are truly nothing more than filthy rags without you in our lives, and that you have loved us since the beginning, in spite of our miserable selves.
I am so sorry that this XXX ministry (What ever they are) has represented you in such a filthy and repulsive way. But as it is news to me, you have known about this since the beginning of the beginning. This is not news for you, yet you came and died for us anyway. God, you are so awesome and worthy of so much more than we can give. I cannot fathom your grace.
Keep loving us Lord. Don’t give up on us. There is much work to do. Have mercy on your faithful and help us to stand firm in your ways and not the world’s ways. Help our pastors hearts to be renewed for you, that they might have a renewed sense of urgency to simply preach your word, and let the numbers be your concern.
Help our pastors, Lord, to remember that it is not so much about man’s methodology, but it is your word alone which saves, because sheep can have no faith, lest they hear your word. “Faith cometh by hearing and hearing BY THE WORD OF GOD. Lord, help us to have hearts for your word.
God forgive us!
Oh get a sense of humour! I realize there’s probably a generation gap when it comes to the line between funny and sacrilegious, but there are much worse things going on in the Church’s hidden recesses.
Also if this subject wasn’t so taboo in the first place, maybe we wouldn’t be here.
This reminds me of that scene in the movie Patch Adams (1998) with Robin Williams. You’ve got to laugh at that. Again I understand how older people may not find it funny, but things have changed – nothing is sacred anymore (unless you’re Amish, Quaker, or live on the prairie.)
When it comes to having it in the open for all the see, including children, well I’m not so sure – although children do need to learn about the P thing at some point – I would leave it up to the parent and therefore would choose not impose this on them.
ekettle,
If having a sense of humor involves me compromising my ability to fairly represent our Lord and Savior, who is worthy of so much more than this monstrosity, then I would rather not have a sense of humor.
ekettle,
The fact that there are worse things going on doesn’t validate something like this. I stated in my first sentence that discussion of the subject or helping people wasn’t what I was against, but rather, that this wasn’t the way to go about doing it.
If you find being against this is simply a lack of a sense of humor, the problem is self-evident for all to see.
Many things have changed, but some things are sacred. The saddest change is that some thing otherwise.
tr
uh, get over it. how many people have you helped resolve the issue of porn? they have helped more people break this addiction than any of their critics have.
if they are wrong in what they do, then let God deal w/ them. if you feel so strongly against this, then pray for them to come to the realization of God’s truth. let me ask you this: how much time did you spend praying for them vs the time you spent bashing them? i’m sick and tired of seeing christians attack each other in the body of Christ. it turns more people off to christianity than it turns on.
Psychopenguin,
Your commentary carries the very tone of “attack”, which you now attempt to rebuke. In fact your comment is clearly woven with spite while GalationsC4’s original post offered a sense of sadness while reporting the facts as he knows them to be, leaving the obviously controversial topic open for respectful discussion.
It is sad how you decided to share, here. “For though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not love, I am become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.” –1 Corinthians 13
loving the word,
my questions from my previous post still remain… and i now extend them to you. i read your prayer, and not once did i see anything about you praying for them to come to God’s truth, mercy, love, plan, etc. and since i apparently have to post something in a loving tone, why don’t you work on it your self. i did not sense the least bit of love from you in that prayer. rather, you seemed pretty ashamed and disgusted with them.
let me ask you some more questions: what if God really told them to do this? to use wally the wiener? would you even be able to recognize that this was a God idea? or are you stuck in a thought process telling you that anything that might make you feel a little uncomfortable is not from God?
how do you really know that God did not want them to do this? especially since their ministry bears much fruit? for crying out loud, it’s a giant penis! every male has one! God created penises. wally’s not porking anyone. if he was, then i’d be concerned.
have you even read their webisite? here’s a quote from their site that may give you a clue that they are on your side:
“God made us in his image. Sin destroyed and distorted that image. When Adam and Eve fell they hid from God because they were naked. Wally has no shame, guilt or remorse. Fallen man does. We accept the sexual images because we ourselves
are sinners and fall short of the glory of God. Christ has bridged that gap and Wally is along for the creative ride. Salvation cleanses our sin and we see Wally in the light God made him, good. Wally’s message? Free yourself from the sexual images of the world. Free yourself from sin.”
[in a more loving tone] not everyone will have the same tactics for witnessing and dealing with sin as you or i. every church is different, and i think it’s a beautiful thing. i apologize for potentially offending anyone here and sounding angry in my posts. actually, i was angry. i meant my original post to be more of a defensive one, not an attack. the reason why i defend xxxchurch.com is b/c they have helped me and other members of my church overcome pornography addictions. i understand that their tactics might make people feel uneasy, but they are effective.
go to there website and see for yourself. http://www.xxxchurch.com. they have accountability software that will e-mail an accountability partner anytime you log onto a porn site. they have support groups, bible studies, and a prayer wall. they have resources and work books to help adults and teens, as well as resources to help parents and youth workers talk to kids about porn. they are the most effective anti-porn group in the world.
i hope some of this helps.
You said:“i read your prayer, and not once did i see anything about you praying for them to come to God’s truth, mercy, love, plan, etc.”
Here is the part of my prayer that you must have failed to read and or understand, because this prayer was for “all pastors”.
“Keep loving us Lord. Don’t give up on us. There is much work to do. Have mercy on your faithful and help us to stand firm in your ways and not the world’s ways. Help our pastors hearts to be renewed for you, that they might have a renewed sense of urgency to simply preach your word, and let the numbers be your concern.
Help our pastors, Lord, to remember that it is not so much about man’s methodology, but it is your word alone which saves, because sheep can have no faith, lest they hear your word. “Faith cometh by hearing and hearing BY THE WORD OF GOD. Lord, help us to have hearts for your word.
God forgive us!”
That being said, I am afraid that Jesus’ example does not indicate at all that he would have used such debauchery to defeat debauchery.
As believers we are to be “In the world, but not of the world.” We are sanctified (Set apart) from the unbeliever and we should behave differently and look differently than the world so that the unbeliever sees this difference (Being Jesus) and be drawn toward His light. I do not see Jesus’ light in this Wally thing. Not at all.
This methodology that XXX has adopted indicates that the world might be starting to have more of an influence on them than their original ministry intended, which was actually one of the biggest concerns expressed by other pastors about and for the XXX’ers when they embarked on this endeavor in the first place.
Anyway, it appears that you and I are going to disagree. You were not offended by their tactic(s). I was deeply offended and saddened and felt compelled immediately to pray, which I did.
May you continue to surrender your own personal struggles, which you spoke of, over to the Lord, because of the Lord, who alone is worthy to be praised and not the XXX’ers and certainly not some monstrosity of a god-like phallus creature whose name is Wally.
James 1:17 -”Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”
[sigh] wow dude, you just don’t get it, do you? it’s no wonder why america hates christians so much.
did you even read their website? or are you still defending your statements out of ignorance? Jesus did not use outdated methodology. to farmers, he talked about farming. to tax collectors, he talked about money. to people who have a porn addiction, i’m sure he would have talked about sex. whether or not he’d use an inflatable penis is up for debate, but he definitely would not throw scriptures at people via a bullhorn.
and stop using scripture out of context. “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” is talking about the spread of the gospel of Jesus… not quoting scriptures to unbelievers. and in the original greek, it doesn’t make a reference to God, but rather to Christ. “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Xristou.” Xristou = Christ. the passage it was taken from is referring to unbelievers becoming believers by being taught the things that Jesus taught. throwing out random bible scriptures to people is not going make them repent.
…and you only selectively answered my questions.
romans 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.” 12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this–not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.
psychopenguin,
You have no idea who have helped or haven’t helped, and your question to that is a insinuated attack.
My question is, did you pray for me before you wrote what you wrote?
As far as why people hate Christians, it is because they hated Christ; He said so Himself.
tr
God is HOLY. If people have a problem with porn, that is no difference than having a problem with lust (adultery). We already see the world pushing adultery down our throats on TV. so, no, we do not have to accept this as being acceptable and in fun. It is disgusting and vile. When God’s Word becomes reduced to the lowest common denominator, then the church has failed. Let’s lift up God’s Word to the high standards that it deserves! God is HOLY!
thanks for the post tr
Psycho,
Do you sincerely wish to continue this dialog? What is your intent?
I have already afforded you the freedom to believe as you wish. I have shared that I simply disagree. That should be okay with you, unless your intent is to force me to believe what you believe.
As for the rabbit trails you have attempted to drag our conversation down, I am not willing to go there, particularly because your assertions, though sincere, are mistaken on many levels. For starters, I am not a “dude”, but a lady who would prefer in the case of respectful dialog to be addressed as such.
Let me try to make this clear, though my brevity may cause my words to appear heartless, when I am certainly anything but,
“This conversation is a fruitless endeavor at this point and I do not wish to continue it with you.” The best thing for both of us is to simply afford one another their God given freedom to believe on this matter as they feel led to believe and each of us take it before the throne of the Savior that He might speak to both of our hearts.”
If I have misunderstood your message or your intent, then I will sincerely ask that He help me to bette understand, and I would ask that you do the same.
May our God bless you and keep you and protect you from the grip of the enemy as you also reach out to others who have wrestled with the binding and devouring evil’s found in the world of pornography and sexual sins.
And there is one thing that I think we might both certainly agree upon and that is that we can both praise God that you have been rescued from this enemy of pornography by the Holy grace and mercy of God, because He loves you and has something far greater planned in and for your life. May that plan be made ever clear to you as you continue your walk with our Savior. -Selah
Good words Loving The Word and Brian. Thanks.
tr
Tony,
Thanks for pointing this out. Oftentimes I think in our well-intentioned attempts to appeal to unbelievers we tend to self-deprecate ourselves and end up misrepresenting the Gospel.
And by doing so we end up misrepresenting the One who died for us, in order to soothe people who are as we all once were, unable to taste and see that the Lord indeed is good.
I think Brian Culver has it down! God is Holy. Is this appropriate behaviour? I suppose that is the question.
I think loving correction is required. Rather than get into heated debates, lets talk properly.
Who is the target market here? Obviously people with a pornography problem.
Who is receiving the marketing? Everyone.
Is this necessary? No.
The issue here is not only that people who don’t need help are going to see it, but rather most people WILL feel awkward about this. I would NEVER be seen going through the doors of such a place. To me it looks like a porn ADVERT.
Think of the children. xxxchurch is FORCING kids to deal with these issues, perhaps prematurely.
What’s more important? Wally or Christ? Why defend something that is not Christ? I’d rather put Christ in front of my problems than having gimmicks. ANY gimmicks!
Quintin you make some good points.
One thing that I have noticed is the hypocrisy in using Wally to protest the use of sexual images in commercials. Hello? Isn’t that what Wally is doing; using a sexual image to promote your cause?
The end doesn’t justify the means, which is the major point I think XXXchurch misses. I don’t question their motives or desires to help people, and I think their accountability software is quite good; but using methods that do exactly what you are against is justifying the means with the end, and is not becoming of Christians.
My wife made the same point to me that you did about the kids. There is no advantage in forcing kids to face issues too early. That isn’t sheltering them or not dealing with the problem, it is using wisdom regarding when in their life they should face some issues. Wally takes that prerogative away from the parent and gives it to the Wally promoter…again, not something Christians should be involved in doing.
tr
[...] don’t need Wally The Weiner and “The Other F-Word” to shock people into reading the Word. It is the Word of God and [...]
galations,
you said “You have no idea who have helped or haven’t helped, and your question to that is a insinuated attack.” in which i reply http://xxxchurch.com/prayerwall/
yeah… i think i might have a little idea of how many people they’ve helped. i’m glad you realized that in a latter post, “I don’t question their motives or desires to help people, and I think their accountability software is quite good…”
and yes, i did pray for you before my first post, as i prayed for you before this one.
laz and tony,
i don’t disagree that people hate christians b/c they first hated Christ. but that does not afford us the luxury of using that as our scapegoat every time someone hates us. if someone grows up to hate christians b/c he was molested by a priest, i don’t think he hated Christ first. i think Christ was misrepresented in that situation, thus a false Christ was portrayed.
everyone,
please do not mistake methodology for theology. wally the wiener is not targeting children. he is not doing some chick. and he’s not used as a gimmick to get people saved. i could be wrong, but i don’t even think he’s being used in church parking lots to promote anti-porn. if you don’t agree w/ their methods, don’t complain about it! do something! start a prayer thread for xxxchurch. pray they will be successful bringing the healing power of Jesus Christ to the masses. and pray they do it in a righteously creative way. criticism will only kill someone’s passion. correction will steer it into the right direction. if you think what they are doing is wrong, pray that God will correct them.
as for “the other f-word”… i may head over to that blog tomorrow
Psycho,
You said,
I think you missed my point; I wasn’t saying that you didn’t know how much THEY did, but that you didn’t know what I did, and thus your insinuation that I wasn’t doing anything was baseless and made from ignorance.
And of course Psycho, no one here was swinging the pendulum all the way over there and defending that position either. If people hate us because we are hypocrites then we are wrong and should repent, ask for forgiveness, and pay restitution to the best of our ability so that our errors aren’t reflective on Christ and His church. On the other hand, if people hate us because we speak the truth in love, then that is on them and doesn’t change our obligation to speak the truth.
Absolutely, and of course I don’t believe anyone thought Laz or I was defending such from our previous points.
Oh but my friend, what you don’t realize is that theology determines methodologies. If we believe that God is causing sinners to be converted and using us in the process, we will preach and witness very different than if we believe what we do causes sinners to respond to the gospel.
This comes out when we see churches using “felt-needs” methods to appeal to sinner’s carnal desires to “get them in” so they can “hear the gospel” (which usually doesn’t end up being a Biblical gospel at all).
When man is the center of the cause of conversion, our methods change to accommodate for that theology. When our theology is Biblical and we understand God is the one in control of conversion, we stay faithful to the Word, preach it clearly and undistorted, and God works in the hearts of sinners to cause conversion.
Once someone is born-again, they desire to hear the word, pray, sing and fellowship with believers, and they leave their demands and desires for a type of dress, a type of music, and a type of person, at home, and they come to church and worship on God’s desires not their own.
Theology most certainly determines methods, and that is precisely the problem this original post was speaking to.
Yes, but that is like putting a porn movie on a build board and advertising it but claiming it isn’t “targeting” kids. It might not be “targeting” them but it sure is “available” to them in an arena that otherwise wouldn’t be expected.
Psycho, I really tire of this criticism. Why do you assume that because I am exposing this error, that I am “complaining” about it. I am not complaining, I am speaking truth to a situation that needs to be addressed. That isn’t complaining. I could turn the same accusation on you and say, “Why are you complaining about me?” Such rhetoric achieves nothing.
I also tire of the baseless and ignorant criticism that because I am addressing it by speaking truth to it that I am somehow not “doing anything” else about it. You have no idea what else I am doing about it so why do you ignorantly proclaim that you know I am not? How do you know I do not pray for them already? What divine knowledge do you have that tells you because I am speaking out on this that I am not praying for them? Perhaps I am speaking truth to the situation because I am praying for them. The point is, you don’t know but you speak as if you do. That is arrogant and ignorant my friend. Would you seriously consider not using these charges in your arsenal?
Correction comes from legitimate criticism, but only if the person is willing to hear it. Have you ever read the Proverbs?
Unless you know that I am not, please don’t insinuate or accuse that I am not.
tr
[...] “majesty, holiness and transcendent glory of God”. I thought of seeker churches where any method imaginable is used to lure people to a worship service (how can an unbeliever worship?), music is more about [...]
look at what happened at walmart with these wicked men XXXchurch,, who trash Jesus
http://xxxchurch.com/blogs/interns/pornmobilecontroversythevideo.html#blogPostComment
wow… I’m glad I’m an atheist. At least we all agree with each other.
Hey all,
I think that all of this disagreement doesn’t help in advancing the Kingdom. We do our witness a disservice by bashing other ministries and other Christians publicly (lol, and it doesn’t get anymore public than the internet!). What does the Bible say to do if we have a grievance with a Brother or Sister in Christ? “go and show him his fault, JUST BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU…” (Matthew 18:15). Let us present a united body, as Christ prayed that we would!
So if I hear you correctly Garth, what you are saying is that you believe that you should have emailed me privately instead of posting your disagreement with me publicly, here?
tr
Garth,
It appears you’d rather snipe than dialog, so since you’ve ignored my question I’ll elaborate further for others following along.
As I pointed out above, it is interesting that you are against public, internet, disagreement, and claim it doesn’t help the kingdom; but you demonstrate the opposite by coming on my public internet blog and disagreeing with me. Perhaps it isn’t the disagreeing in and of itself, but the subject matter where the disagreement is focused that is your dislike?
No one has “bashed” anyone, but it is appropriate to publicly point out error that is publicly proclaimed.
Disagreement in general doesn’t compromise the kingdom. If so, Paul and even Jesus Himself would be guilty of the crime. What doesn’t help in advancing the kingdom is using tactics unbecoming of Christians in order to gain an audience to preach. The gospel doesn’t need that approach.
The Scriptures are sufficient in dealing with all of life’s issues, including porn. God doesn’t need us to use these tactics to shock people into hearing the gospel.
tr