Recently, I’ve been having several discussions on other blogs about what church is for, emerging and seeker churches, and the “doing” of the Christian life. A new but all too common theme we hear these days are that those who “puff up” with theology and knowledge aren’t “doing” the Christian life, and so we need to not focus on theology or doctrine, but just “do” more.
In these discussions about the balance of these concepts, my friend Vince ask me a serious question about how Christians should go about dealing with temptations and indwelling sins.
Since my response was more of a stand-alone post, I’ve posted it here on my blog because I think it has information valuable to my readers as well.
I hope you’ll read and be edified.
Vince,
Thanks for your sincere question, and I hope I can provide some helpful answers.
I think one problem I can clear up right away, is the problem that is apparent in the presentation of the question. When you present it as “knowing vs. doing,” the problem is in the “vs” part. What is implied is that there is one or the other.
Even Brian’s picture of “balance,” with the see-saw photo, indicates that when one is high, the other is automatically low, and vice-versa. “Knowing” and “doing” are not inversely proportional in that manner. “Doing” doesn’t go down when “knowledge” goes up.
I hear this argument made a lot with some young Christians and pastors, but it is a misnomer. In the Christian walk, “doing” not only increases as “knowledge” increases, but proper “knowing” is a prerequisite to proper “doing.” Presenting them as opposites is factually untrue.
So the first understanding is to recognize that “knowing” and “doing” in the Christian life are not opposites. More knowledge does not automatically make someone, as Tadd Grandstaff puts it,
“…get fatter and fatter and never actually exercise any of their so called knowledge & wisdom”
More knowledge, applied properly, allows the Christian to actually “do” more, properly. This is because the “doing” and the actions are based on proper “knowledge,” understandings, doctrines, and truths; not out of ignorance. It is incorrect to think that because one increases Biblical knowledge that they therefore automatically “do less.” This is a straw-man, ad hominem argument, that some people create and love to use.
Therefore, I would maintain that your statement that,
“the 99.9% of the effort involved in accomplishing each of those tasks has got to go towards the doing and 0.1% of the effort goes towards the knowing.”
…is exactly backwards. If someone ventures off and spends 99.9% of their time and efforts “doing,” with only 0.1% of knowledge of “what they are doing,” or “how to do it,” they are spinning their wheels and wasting their time. Even creating damage.
Think about hiring a carpenter to do work at your house. If he showed up with his tools and started smashing and crashing around “doing,” without any idea or knowledge of what he was endeavoring to do, you would fire him immediately. Well there are all sorts of folks smashing and crashing around today in the area of theology in exactly that manner, but they aren’t being “fired,” they are being admired, followed, and endorsed. They are unfortunately doing to Christians what such a carpenter would do to your home.
Have you ever read through, studied, or heard an exposition of Ephesians. In this letter Paul unfolds exactly what I am saying here. He spends the first three chapters discussing proper theology, and then the last three chapters discussing proper Christian living. Paul knew that chapters four through six would be meaningless to them if they didn’t have a proper understanding of theology. Don’t take my word for it, look it up, read it and see if what I am saying is true. In fact most modern translations even state this truth in their introductions to the book of Ephesians.
For example, two I happen to have within reach are, The NIV Student Bible, which says,
“Like other letters from Paul, Ephesians divides fairly neatly between doctrine (chapters 1-3) and practical advice (4-6). The last half details how our lives should change as a result of the great things described in the first part. Pg 1031.
And the John MacArthur study Bible, which states,
“The first 3 chapters are theological, emphasizing NT doctrine, whereas the last 3 chapters are practical and focus on Christian behavior.” Pg. 1770
Preachers today should follow that model and preach and teach theology, to increase people’s knowledge, in order that they can understand the practical applications of their teachings on Biblical spiritual growth. And then of course, teach Biblical applications and not man-centered ones.
What I would like the opportunity to do is to convince you that proper understanding and knowledge first, will lead the Christian to have the ability to “do” the Christian life more Biblically. I hope you’ll give my words a chance.
To start down that road, I’d like to first look at your statement,
“I know a ton of things that are not Biblical but the effort required to eliminate them from my life took and continues to take an enormous amount of effort compared to the fact that I “know” that they needed to go.”
This is a good point, and one that I would like to look at through the eyes of salvation. We know that we do not have the ability to walk in the light, by efforts of the flesh. The flesh is weak, and if we try to fight the battle in the flesh, we lose. Paul says,
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,” 1 Cor 10:3
And he also says,
“…walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.” Gal 5:16-17
John MacArthur, in his book, “The Quest for Character,” says,
“If your heart is dead and spiritually lifeless, you cannot by a sheer act of human will summon an appetite for true righteousness. Scripture says, “the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:7-8).”
I would say further, the fact you find it an “enormous effort” to fight the flesh is not a sign of weakness, but a sign that you are saved!
The Christian attitude toward his own sin is not flippant and apathetic, but disdain and hatred. When the true Christian sins, the Holy Spirit convicts him, and he is miserable until he repents. This is a sign of regeneration. Paul talks about this battle that is present in the Christian’s life in Romans 7:14-25.
If we are in a battle against sin, the presence of the battle is evidence of a regenerated life. If there is no battle against sin, and sin is ignored, justified, and defended, it is evidence that a regenerated life has not taken place (2 Cor 5:17-18).
I say this to encourage you, that even if you continue to struggle with temptations, that the struggle is a good sign that God is working in your life to bring conviction, repentance, and to grow and change you to be more like Christ.
The question is, are we fighting the battle in the flesh, or in the Spirit? Only you can answer that for yourself, but when you ask me,
“Have you found many things to be more a doing thing than a knowing thing?”
…I wonder if this is because the battle is fleshly rather than Spiritual, and thus it appears to be a “doing” thing to you?
For example, let’s consider the sin of watching pornography. I don’t know if that is the case for you or not, but it is a good example. In your average superficial, seeker-sensitive, emergent church, there gathers, say several men, who have this struggle. They hear a topical sermon on how wrong and unbiblical it is, which they already know anyway. Then they hear a good sermon on three steps to overcome the addition. Then they have a small group come together to talk about experiences and struggles. Finally, they have an accountability partner (who usually has the same struggle) to “keep watch” after them. Basically they are told, “Just don’t do it cause it is wrong,” and then pooled ignorance is utilized to try to stop the behavior.
Now don’t get me wrong, I am not saying any of these are bad, in and of themselves, and perhaps some can be helpful when properly used. But what happens is that this becomes a lot of the “doing,” and it can be all in the flesh. What is missing is the power of the Word of God, put into the hearts of these men to give them hope and godly direction for true change. Without that, all these well intentioned fleshly efforts are recipes for disaster. Ultimately, these men continue to struggle with the same sin, never achieving the victory over it that God can deliver. This is not God’s will and it saddens me to see Christians struggling with these besetting sins without the hope God’s Word gives that they can be overcome.
I am not talking about completely doing away with the struggle, with the battle, or with the temptation, but rather, being able to walk in the Spirit according to the Word of God in a manner that victory can be obtained from giving in, to the desires of the flesh. The Bible is a “how to change” book from God, and proper knowledge of how to apply that theology (the knowing) can bring the change (the doing) that God desires for our lives as Christians.
It is not about perfection, but about direction. Sometimes God gives us complete victory over some sins, and sometimes He allows, for His purposes and glory, for us to struggle in order to sanctify and perfect us. Scripture tells us that,
“No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.” 1 Cor 10:13
God may or may not take away a temptation, but temptation is not sin. God is however, interested in how we react to it. His Word provides answers for the Christian to react godly instead of sinfully, but we have to “know” Him and “know” His Word to be able to apply and “do” those things.
It grieves me when I see pastors, churches, and Christians rushing headlong in to the “doing,” leaving behind the centrality of the Word and replacing it with man-centered gimmicks to try to tackle problems that can’t be mastered in the flesh. Many times, they even do it while criticizing those who esteem the Word as the source of solution, when it is the very Word that has the only hope for true resolution to their struggles.
The Bible claims that it is a supernatural book from God to us, and it is sufficient to handle life’s problems.
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:16-17″
“For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” Heb 4:12
For the Christian, learning Biblical principles for godly change is what it is all about. If we gain proper Biblical knowledge, we are able to grow and change as God desires. If we don’t, we only walk in the flesh in our own futile attempts. Knowledge can certainly puff up, if it is obtained for the sake of knowledge and without action; but when that happens, it isn’t the gaining of knowledge that is the problem, it is the failure of acting on it that is the problem. We should criticize the failure to act and not the gaining of knowledge of Biblical principals, when that happens.
So how can proper knowledge of theology help with overcoming a porn addiction? There are many things I could say, much that would be too exhaustive to completely discuss here, but I will give you a taste to make my point. Let’s look at the man struggling with porn in our example above. How can proper theology help him apply Biblical principles to overcome his addition?
I’ve asked men before who are in this situation,
“Do you have a problem controlling your addiction when your mother is visiting? What about the Mother-in-law? Ever turn it own when she is there? How about when the wife is at home, does it usually happen then or only when she leaves?”
I’ve never had anyone tell me they can’t control this addiction when they aren’t alone. This is very interesting; it can be controlled by the fear of man, but not by the fear of God? Perhaps this man’s view of God is too small? What do you think can help this man with the root of his problem? More accountability so that he is never alone? No, that is only lipstick on a pig. It only covers up and frustrates the root desires, but it doesn’t deal with the root desires.
Here we are talking about a man who believes in God, claims the name of Christ, and loves the Lord. But what is his view of the Lord? Could it be an idolatrous view? He doesn’t need another three-step program of how to manipulate the flesh; he needs to have his wrong view of God corrected so that he understands the Biblical God and Biblical principles for life.
The Bible teaches for example, that
“The eyes of the LORD are everywhere,
keeping watch on the wicked and the good.” Prov 15:3
…and
“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.” Heb 4:13
So this man, when he thinks he is alone, he is not really alone; but his theology of this truth is not real enough to him to change his behavior. God is always there, watching, keeping a record to which an account must be given. Do you think this man really thinks, understands, or believes this? If so, is he acting on that belief? Knowledge, or the lack of knowledge, and the actions that come from that are incredibly important!
I have learned that one thing that really helps a man like this, is gaining in knowledge and understanding of the Biblical attributes of God. A book like A.W. Pink’s “The Attributes of God” is very helpful for this purpose. When God is too small and we are too big (in our own eyes), books like this, as well as powerful sermons from the Word of God, are paramount in understanding a proper view of God and His attitude towards sin. It isn’t the clever words of man, or the manipulation of feelings by a great speaker, but the Word of God that can change a person.
Now I am not saying the things I originally mentioned in the example above were bad. Accountability groups and specific sin studies are not wrong or incorrect. They are just incomplete without the above-described Biblical framework around them. In the case of spiritual bondage, which I do believe a Christian can fall into, if someone is addicted to a sin, in bondage, but they are a believer – they may know the truth, may even cry out and pray, and cry and repent – but sometimes they may need to see that bondage broken.
“For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,” 2 Cor. 10:4).
And for that, he may need a brother to confess to and help him work through it. I am not criticizing that approach as practical steps. I am saying it is incomplete without the knowledge, which comes from the proclamation of the Word of God.
Another thing that helps with this is a proper understanding of the gospel and the cross. As Christians, we need the gospel every day, and we need to keep the cross in our view at all times. I believe, for the Christian who has a Biblical view of the cross, it is impossible to simultaneously give in to sin and dwell on the cross.
When we think, that the God who created the Universe, who spoke it all into existence, who names the stars, who commands the planets to align and they move, who commands the mountains to rise and they do, who commands the waves to come this far and no further, and they do, became a man, lived a sinless life, and died on a bloody cross for me, it is an all encompassing thought. Is it real to this man in our example, or is it just a flannel chart children’s story?
What does the cross tell us about God? First, it tells us of His view of sin. He hates it. He does not leave the guilty unpunished (Num 14:18) because He can’t. Scripture tells us that,
“Whoever says to the guilty, “You are innocent”-
peoples will curse him and nations denounce him.” Prov 24:24
and
“Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent-
the LORD detests them both.” Prov 17:15
God just can’t turn a blind eye to sin; it can’t be in His presence. Some people think that God will just forgive them on judgment day because He is a good God and a good judge. But the “goodness” that they are relying on to save them will actually condemn them on that day. A good judge does not let a guilty person go free; he justly sentences him to the penalty for their crime.
The penalty for our crime of sin is death and eternal hell. A good God has no choice but to convict us of our crime and give us our fine. Unless of course, someone pays that fine for us. Our problem, is that no man was capable of doing that because all men sin (Rom 3:23).
It was God’s prearranged plan to become a man Himself and pay the fine for us. Isaiah 53:10 tells us that it “pleased the Lord to crush Him” on our behalf. How could it please the Lord to crush His own Son? Because He hates sin so much and we were doomed unless He did it!
But what else does the cross tell us? It tells us of the love of God because He loves us THAT much! Wow! The dual nature of the cross, it brings God’s justice and God’s love together! In Scripture, when you read about the love of God, you usually see the cross very close nearby (Rom 5:8, John 3:16). The mercy and love of God is inexplainable without the context of sin, and His wrath towards sin.
I love the song “Sweetly Broken” by Jeremy Riddle. In that he sings,
“To the cross I look, to the cross I cling, Of its suffering I do drink. Of its work I do sing. For on it my Savior, both bruised and crushed. Showed that God is love. AND God is just.”
Now THAT’s the cross!
Charles Wesley wrote, “Amazing Love, how can it be, that Thou my God should die for me.” John Newton wrote, “Amazing grace how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me.“
Do we really believe that? Can we comprehend that such a God is real, is big, and is here, always? If we think of our sins and focus on the cross, it should drive us to our knees in tearful repentance towards a Holy and Just God that would be so kind to do that.
Someone who has a proper grasp of this Biblical doctrine could not possibly consider giving themselves to watching porn. If someone can’t stop watching porn, it is quite possible that their knowledge and doctrines of God are wrong, too small, and not real to them, superficial and tripe. They may know the Bible says it is wrong, but without the real knowledge of the real God, they can give in to fleshly desires easily. But gaining that knowledge can give them the ability to “walk in the Spirit” rather than the flesh. Do you see how the knowledge produces the action?
Where Christ is not exalted, the cross is not the center focus, and the Word is not proclaimed preeminently, men struggle with besetting sins because their only weapon against them is the flesh or the will. Where these things are happening, the power of God is upon them to grow and change them to be Christ-like.
Two great books on this, by CJ Mahaney are “The Cross Centered Life” and “Living The Cross Centered Life.”
Other Biblical knowledge that often helps people, is understanding what the Bible calls “idols of the heart.” Ezekiel describes them as being “stumbling blocks before their faces.” When something is “before your face” that is the only thing you can see. You can’t see God or other people. What does the Bible teach that should be “before our face?” God!
Our ultimate goal in everything we do as Christians is to glorify and be pleasing to God.
“So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.” 1 Cor 10:31
“So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it” 2 Cor 5:9
One way we glorify God is to keep Him “before our face” rather than our own desires. We can do this by obeying Him in our behaviors rather than succumbing to our own desires and lusts. Many desires we have are not bad things to desire: approval, pleasure, happiness, are not in themselves bad. But when a desire that is not bad is desired more than pleasing God, it becomes and idol and an object of lust. It becomes right “before our eyes” and we can’t see anything but it.
One of the things I have seen help people overcome besetting sins is to Biblically understand what the “idol of the heart” is, the root issue, of their behavior. Once that is identified, Biblical principles can be utilized to overcome them. One thing I ask people to help them identify their heart idols is, “What do you want so much that you are willing to sin to get it?” And also, “What do you react sinfully over when you don’t get it?” Questions like this can expose our heart idols and help us deal with root problems.
For example, it is not a bad desire for me to want obedient children. That’s good, the Bible says I should have obedient children. I want obedient children. But when I go home from work, if my children aren’t obedient and I lash out at them, yell at them, or hit them because they are not obeying, what is going on here? Is anger an issue? Yes. What about a control problem? Yep. But those are symptoms of the real heart issue that I want something so bad, that when I can’t get it I am willing to sin to get it. That’s the idol. I can go to all the anger management classes I can pay for, but I will not win victory over this battle until I deal with the heart issue Biblically.
James talks about this in chapter 4,
“What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.” James 4:1-3
Do you see James’ point? What do these verses tell us the source is: Our desires, our wants, and to appease our pleasures. We want something more than we want to please and glorify God, so we sin in order to get it.
So when I place my desires behind what should be my first desire, to please and glorify God, then I am able to apply Biblical principles, that I know, to overcome struggles.
If I am seeking first to glorify God as a parent, and not just wanting obedient kids, then I understand that I am not to provoke my children to anger but instead, to bring them up in the training of the Lord. (Eph 6:4). I am not to yell at them to get my way, and try to be their god, but to handle their disobedience in a godly and Biblical manner. When I fail at this, knowing my heart idols helps address the problem correctly, and as God grows and changes me, I am able to have success as I mature as a Christian.
Can you see how this is much different than just telling someone something is wrong and not to do it because it is wrong?
Paul talks about the “put on / put off” principles of God in Ephesians and Colossians. This Biblical principle entails not just identifying what is wrong and telling someone to “stop,” but to replace the wrong behavior with right ones.
“You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.” Eph 4:22-23
He goes on to instruct the liar to put off falsehood and to instead speak truthfully. He tells the thief to put off stealing and to work in order to have to give to others. Put off / put on. The Bible is filled with them! But we have to know what they are in order to do them. We don’t learn them by being entertained with smoke machines and shows, but by the proclamation of the Word of God.
Once we have identified why we do what we do, what our heart idols are, we can then use Biblical principles to put off the wrong behaviors and put on the right ones. God blesses this, and true change in the hearts of men is possible. If our porn addicted man in our example, understands the idol of his heart that causes the desire that he is willing to sin to get, he can address that heart issue correctly, and then grow and change. If not, he can’t and will continue to struggle. He doesn’t need another accountability partner when God is real in this way. The Holy Spirit is the best accountability partner anyone can have!
Do you see the difference in what the Bible is teaching here, and what we hear from modern day, so-called preachers? This is precisely what I meant on the blog where this discussion originally began, when I critiqued parts of a few sermons by Tadd Grandstaff. Read my words again with what I have said here, in mind:
“Finally Tadd, what concerned me the most, was the lack of the gospel, and the lack of Christ in the messages. You properly proclaimed the “that’s” but never the “how’s.” You properly proclaimed the Bible was God’s Word, but never preached it. You properly claimed that Christ could take away burdens, but never said how…
My heart literally sunk when you properly told the people that Eph 4:22 says to “put off” the former way of life, but then you ignored verse 24, which exhorts them to also “put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.” You properly identified many problems, but gave either wrong solutions, or no solutions at all.”
Ironically, Tadd rails about those who swell up in knowledge but don’t do anything, when he is the one preaching the “just don’t do it” message (put off), and omitting the Biblically practical ways of how it is done (put on).
Ironically, he originally sniped at me on that blog, but then offered no response to my legitimate critiques, but later said others were taking “cheap shots” at him. Ironically, he says that those who want to use proper theological knowledge to inform “the doing,” aren’t doing anything themselves except “getting fat on knowledge,” when in reality he has no idea what I “do” or don’t “do” with my knowledge.
And the ultimate irony is that while I am giving Biblical reasons for faith and trying to use my knowledge to help him and others, he only snipes on blogs about people, calling them cowards, and then doesn’t allow their responses to appear on his blog. What consistency of doing exactly what he is condemning. It is amazing such as that happens at all, its incredible that people esteem that type of arrogance and follow that type of person.
For the record, I am not hording knowledge and refusing to do anything with it. I am not the one turning down lunch offers to talk. I am not on the blog sniping, and refusing to let someone respond in critique on my blog. I am not the coward. I am available for loving talks about what and why I am saying and teaching. He apparently is not.
Tadd “doesn’t have time” for that, as he boasts, because he sees it “most important” to be “dismissing” Christian core group members who were not fully on board with their vision.” I would be warned of men who are not interested in having his teachings compared to Scripture, and corrected where necessary. The country is filled with “pastors” who have a vision they think is from God, which has no root in God’s vision He has given us in the Bible. Turn on your TV at any time and you can see many of them; crowd builders and crowd pleasers, but void of the Spirit of God.
Lastly, I’ll mention another principle that Jesus spoke about; one I have learned to call “radical amputation.” Again, this would be called the “doing,” but it first requires the “knowing” for it to be “done.”
Jesus said,
“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where
” ‘their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-48
When we understand much of what I have spoken about above, and we still can’t bring ourselves under self-control, radical measures are sometimes necessary. The porn addict might have to get rid of his computer and TV. He might have to have his TV removed from his hotel room when traveling alone. He might have to change jobs if the one he has gives him access. The Christian convicted of besetting sin will seek to eliminate his ability to appease the flesh by removing access to its fulfillment. I know of one man for example, using this Biblical principle, requested that his cubical at work be put in a public place, so he would not be tempted to look at porn on his computer.
If sins over come us, we should identify our heart’s idols, put off and put on, and if necessary, use radical amputation. These are Biblical principles that if a Christian “knows,” he can “do” the right things to overcome struggles. Do you get my point? The right “doing” hinges on the “right knowledge.” The way we arrive at this knowledge is through the studying and preaching of the Word of God. That is where the answers to life are. We don’t need more entertainment; we don’t need the preacher to fill our desires in order to encourage us to come to church. We need the gospel to be saved, and to grow in the knowledge of the Word of God for Christian living.
Jesus said,
“And this is eternal life, that they may KNOW You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.” John 17:3
John wrote,
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.” John 5:13
That knowledge comes from one place, from the power of the Word of God, and nowhere else.
We need to encourage people to:
1. Repent of their sins and receive Christ. (Mark 1:15, John1:12) Without this, everything is of man and not of God.
2. Have a high view of God (Exo 20 1:-12, 1 Cor 10:31, 2 Cor 5:9, Eph 1, 2, 3).
3. Have a high view of Scripture (2 Tim 3:16, Heb 4:12).
4. Grow and change in the Lord by being obedient to Him and using Biblical principles to overcome sin (Eph 4, 5, 6).
5. Serve the body of Christ and others as they grow to be more like Christ (Matt 5,6,7).
Notice the first three things require theology and “knowledge.” The last two are more of the “doing” of the Christian life. When well-meaning Christians and pastors encourage people to jump right into 4 and 5, skipping over, or even criticizing steps 1-3, they are doing great harm, creating false converts and future bitter “backsliders.” They are sending people out on a task in which there is no hope in their man-centered ways to overcome sin and live faithful Christian lives.
My prayer is that and all who read this, will understand and use these principles for growth, and seek more knowledge so their “doing” will be pleasing to God.
Filed under: Apologetics, Biblical Counseling, Books, Church Life, Devotions, Emergent Church, Evangelism, Methodists, My Church, PCUSA, Purpose Driven Madness, Scripture, Seeker Sensitive




Great post Tony. Anything other would simply be the cart before the horse. I like to analogize this with telling a child that in order to succeed in school they must learn to write in complete sentences without ever informing them of the alphabet. The learning process in this case is simply saying “DO this” and not “HOW to DO this”.
I pray when this article is read that the reader would be looking for truth in all sincerity.
Proverbs 15:2
The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly, But the mouth of fools pours forth foolishness.
Great analogy Jerry. Thanks.
tr
Tony,
Wow brother, this was very thorough! You did a fine job. I liked the part about our walk being in the direction God wants us to go and that is only by those who walk in the Spirit (the Spirit-filled.) You nailed it bro!
I have had pastors who were all about generating works from the body without giving them the knowledge they need to do so. You are right about that causing havoc and damage. It can also be quite discouraging to those who are being compelled to do those things, but they struggle mightily with it because they don’t know what they are really doing.
Also, the personal attacks that are nothing more than Straw Man arguments like, “those who know more do less” are very easy to hand out. I refuse to entertain them on my blog. No personal attacks and not Straw Man arguments! If someone wants to debate they must present their points from scripture alone. That may cut down on the debate some though.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Wow Tony, my eyes are blurry. Too often the criticism Evangelicals get about doctrine and practice of it is deserved, they do not live it out in their life of faith. I think much of the church fails to live out the doctrines they defend and hold dear. Fact is, there is very little difference between a so called born again believer and pagan in America. Is this the fault of knowing too much doctrine and not doing it or not knowing doctrine and not doing it? Both lead to the same results.
I think a lack of knowing doctrine leads to an inevitable lack of proper practice. For example, I have seen extreme legalism in the life and practice of the church that placed unnecessary burdens on believers. I have seen division and turmoil caused by the misunderstanding of spiritual gifts. Now I see and hear about preachers using secular methods to fill their churches and preaching sermons about how much they hate other Christians. I would argue that a proper doctrinal grounding would put a cap on a lot of this kind of wrong practice. Understanding scripture, doctrine and theology helps us not only resist temptation as Tony states, but would also compel us to live out our faith more practically. The lack of living out the doctrines of scripture is in itself ignorance of doctrine.
Craig,
Your comments are very insightful. I agree, and have said many times, that the emergent folks have identified some serious areas in “church-i-anity” that need to be addressed. Churches that do as you say, should be corrected and brought to a more Biblical view of church.
However, I’ve also said that the solutions that the emergent/seeker churches offer, are often more dangerous than the problems they are trying to address. Identifying problems correctly is one thing, but arriving at Scriptural solutions to them requires the Word and Spirit of God.
Without doctrinal truths and understanding our efforts at doing are in vain.
tr
Very true Tony. I see an attitude of disdain and hating the church more than sin with some of these folks. Over the years as a pastor I have gotten frustrated and at times felt like quitting because of the lack of discipleship and living out the doctrines of scripture among my flock. Instead of becoming hateful and ridiculing them, I just keep hammering away with the word of God and as time goes by, they begin to change. Good teaching and doing builds mature beleivers. Doing without good teaching and grounding I think will ultimately lead to immature believers who will create a new legalism of works. They will not ban the wearing of jewelery, make-up, drinking and “worldly amusements” like some in the past. Instead, the new legalism will be “doing” and each group will define what the doing is that will earn them acceptance in the cult.
Craig,
Thanks for your diligence in preaching The Word faithfully. People change on God’s time and not ours, and you are right we can’t get frustrated. But people can change with the Word at the center. God blesses faithfulness to His Word.
Your descriptions of what happens when we go on the ditch on either side are historically and ‘prophetically’ true.
tr
Mike,
I understand that discouragement you speak of. When we see folks struggling with things the Word of God has answers for, going into a “church” each week, and leaving void of answers. It grieves my soul.
tr
Hey Tony,
Good article! Here are some of my thoughts
Those who want to divorce knowing from doing really fall into one of two camps – broadly speaking. They may not know this in part because of their ignorance of church history. The first camp is that of the 16th century moral reformers such as Erasmus and many others. As you know, there were many people calling for reformation long before Luther. Many saw the corruption in the church, the clergy as well as among the members of the congregations. Their solution was not doctrinal but a call for greater moral commitments and reform. In fact, Luther wrote to one of the popes – I think it was Leo X and said you will remember my name because unlike others calling for reformation of the church I see it as a doctrinal issue first which will transform the morals of the church.
In a different context, this is the same argument Calvin makes in his work The Necessity of Reforming the Church. In that work, Calvin is defending the necessity and the urgency of reformation and is speaking on behalf of all the protestant reformers. He sees four areas of reformation; worship, gospel, church government, sacraments – in that order. He argues that their will be no genuine moral reformation if their isn’t first a reformation of worship based upon the doctrines of the Bible – a principle we now call the Regulative Principle. Right worship leads one to the right gospel which will produce a transformed life.
The second camp of knowing vs. doing people are the mystics – the St. Francis of Assisi – or the modern protestant devotees of Richard Foster or Brennen Manning.
But the members of the “doing” camp have a legitimate beef with doctrinal oriented sorts that emphasize knowledge first. Their beef is really an appropriate rejection of the Enlightenment. We say knowledge is power – or as Thomas Jefferson wrote – “We believe these truths to be self evident…” We see it on our culture and politics – is there a social ill – spend money on it via education. Kids are having pre-marital sex and teenage pregnancies – don’t call them to repentance – but give them a sex education class. Money and knowledge fix everything.
Sadly, this has been the legacy of the American church – and the “doers” are rightly calling us on it. Their problem is they offer a bogus solution.
The effect on the Enlightenment on the church is evidenced in a plethora of ways: The pastor or elders are the truly spiritual people in the congregation. Really? If we believe that the office of pastor/elder is a calling based upon God’s sovereign gifting. Therefore, some members of the congregation are not pastors/elders not because they are not spiritual enough but God didn’t call them. It is possible that the most Christ-like, spiritually minded person in the congregation with the highest decree of sanctification is not the pastor!
Another example is the assumption that those who know the most doctrine are the most serious about their Christian faith. Another, example of the influence of the Enlightenment is all the “how to books” at the Bible Book Store. Based upon the quantity of stock in terms of $$$ and number of volumes of how to books vs. actual Bible on the shelves in these book stores they should really be call “How To Book Stores” not “Bible Book Stores”. The assumption is that the secret of successful Christian living is knowing the right “how to’s”. Al la the success of the book Purpose Driven LIfe which is just a fancy “how to” book.
Or my pet peeve the new religious pilgrimages – the Theology Conference! If you really want to get the meat of the word – don’t listen to your pastor go to your favorite Christian celebrity who will give you the meat of the word. Wait! I thought the gospel was the power of God unto salvation. So if the gospel is rightly preaching by some great expositor like MacArthur or Sproul on the one hand or some country pumpkin pastor who no one has ever heard of beyond his congregation is their a degrading in the power of God? While we would all assume no – our actions say yes. For most of us, if our pastor offered to meet with us one-on-one weekly and at the same time MacArthur or Sproul or Piper or whoever did the same, and we could only choose one, who would we choose? Why? Because the great meat that we can get from the Christian celebrity is more life changing that that of our local pastor.
Sadly, those who will spend large sums of money and time away from home and family – and maybe even away from their church – are the last people to come to prayer meeting or actually skip the worship service to spend time praying and fasting for the pastor and the congregation. Didn’t Spurgeon say that he had some 400 praying people in a room directly below the pulpit when he preached and that this was the secret of him success?
One final example. Richard Baxter is often quoted as how we should preach when he said we should peach as never sure to preach again, and as a dying man to dying men. According to J I Packer, Jonathan Edwards disagreed with this advice. Packer wrote, “But this is a mistake. Edwards knew very well that ‘the main benefit obtained by preaching is by impression made upon the mind at the time, and not by ann effect that arises afterwards by a remembrance of what was delivered.” If Edwards is correct, why do we spend so much time and effort in taking notes to read it some future moment rather than focusing our attention on what is being said in the present.
The missing ingredient in the knowing vs. doing debate is the necessity of grace. Yes, everyone in the debate will say they acknowledge the need for a sovereign act of God’s grace for our salvation and sanctification. However, both sides miss the grace. The “knowing” side misses the grace when they say they show by their zeal to read the next book on doctrine is greater than their desire labor long in prayer. Some of the people in the blogging debate spend more time blogging that praying. That says something.
The “doing” camp undermines grace by assuming grace comes primarily from prayer – fasting and the other spiritual disciplines. Someone once said to Warfield something to the effect – study? Why I learn more in one hour of prayer than I do in ten hours of study. Warfield is said to have replied “Oh, for ten hours of prayer over the books.”
The reformed have long held the the primary means of saving and sanctifying grace is the public preaching and the ordinances of baptism and communion in the local church. However, just openly state that and you had better duck quickly because a hostile reaction is coming. For most Americans we do not believe that the primary means of saving and sanctifying grace is a Sunday service where the gospel is rightly preached and the ordinances are rightly administered. Rather, the modern “knowing” camp Christian assumes that if you really want to grow go to a conference on theology or read a book on doctrine. The “doing”camp will go on weekend retreat for prayer, fasting and worship via modern mantras called chorus (God forbid that they sing doctrinally oriented hymn and much less the Psalms). But please, don’t go to a local church and listen to another sermon and take communion. That is just too easy.
1Tim. 4:6 ¶ In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.
1Tim. 4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will insure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
Col. 4:2 ¶ Devote yourselves to prayer, keeping alert in it with an attitude of thanksgiving;
Col. 4:3 praying at the same time for us as well, that God may open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned;
Col. 4:4 in order that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak.
Eph. 6:19 and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,
Eph. 6:20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
2Th. 3:1 ¶ Finally, brethren, pray for us that the word of the Lord may spread rapidly and be glorified, just as it did also with you;
These are my thoughts for what they are worth. Let me know what you think.
Doug
Wow Doug, I’ve read your words 3 times already. Very good points. Especially the points on prayer. I wish I had emphasized that more in my post. That is a great exhortation.
Much of what you have said here recalled memories of what MacArthur, Sproul, Dever, Piper, Mohler, and Mahaney said at Together For The Gospel.
I got your points and they are good cautions for both sides of this issue, and an alarm that we shouldn’t be perceived to be taking sides. Both issues are equally important!
Thanks,
tr
Tony,
I agree with all your points except the one about the doing taking 1% and the knowing taking 99%. Your carpenter analogy does not take into account that the vast majority of any carpenter’s knowledge comes from doing.
Having the knowledge to get rid of masturbation was easy. Taking the practical steps of involving my accountability group, including my wife was extremely difficult. Currently, as part of my “doing” in that area I feel very comfortable and led to (I know, I know…that’s the ultimate converstation stopper) helping hold some of my best friends accountable. Mind you, these friends of mind can run circles around me in their knowledge of the Bible but they have some issues with stepping out from behind their computer screen or from fantastic, but sometimes debilitating desire to read everything Biblical, to go have a conversation with their wives and really, really, listen to the hurt and pain in their voices when they tell them about their struggle with masturbation.
My wife cried for hours during our early conversations about masturbation but now she feels very comfortable holding me accountable by turning the channel, canceling the cable, or not pointing out obvious visual temptation.
Did all this stem from my sudden gain in knowledge of the Bible? In this case, the power and majesty of God did not become obvious to me until I made the choice, remember we still have the choice, to get off my butt and start doing something about it.
I realize that everyone is not prepared to deal with masturbation. It seems to be a pretty good litmus test for whether or not a man is going to, at least, begin the process of doing instead of just typing and typing about it.
It’s not 6000 words, but, hey, neither is most of the New Test.
Vince,
Thanks for your reply and I thank God for our areas of agreement.
Real quick though, in the first part of my post when I said that these comments of yours…
…were “exactly backwards,” I didn’t mean as you apparently received, that the numbers were backwards. You seem to indicate I meant so, by this phrase in your response,
I didn’t say that. You missed my point. I was trying to say that the concept was backwards, not the numbers. I apologize if that was unclear in my words. I was not saying flip it around like that, I was saying the whole see-saw scale concept was wrong because when one is up the other is not automatically down.
If you must use the see-saw analogy, it would be 50/50, but I think that image is incorrect. Proper knowledge leads to proper action; they don’t “counter-balance” one another. Thus the use of the word “AND” in the title, rather than “OR.”
I hope the rest of what I wrote that you agreed with will be useful in your struggles and efforts to help others. I am thankful you are growing in your struggles and are able to help others grow as well. I agree that I think this issue is one that many men struggle with, and it is good to have someone with victory over it in the battle to help others do the same.
tr
P.S. If you aren’t familiar with the many resource I recommended, please do check them out. If you want to borrow instead of buy please let me know and I’ll be glad to share.
Vince, I applaud your effort in overcoming this sin your life. Certainly we all have foreboding sins that we are in a constant battle with. I believe they are thorns in the flesh that keep us humble and running back to the grace and mercy of the cross of Christ. Jesus said that He is the vine, and we are the branches, and that apart from him we can do nothing. He enables and empowers us to have the desire to overcome these besetting sins. You are correct in your assessment that you have to make the decision, but it is through HIS empowering that we even begin to WANT to make that change. Our sin should encourage us to run to the cross and thank God for His grace and mercy. I agree that it is not all about knowledge, nor is it all about doing, as both of those rely on us and are man centered. We should all fall on our face before our Savior, thank Him for forgiveness, thank Him for strength to do, thank Him for the ability to know, and thank Him for working His will and His way in our lives. God is Sovereign!
Tony-
These are some of the words from my original post: Balance. And. Both.
You’ve built a 6000 word thesis on refuting things I didn’t say. The ultimate straw man.
You claim that spending time “knowing” doesn’t mean less “doing.” However, unless you have unlimited hours in the day, each minute spent “knowing” is a minute you can’t be “doing.”
That’s why it has to be a balance of both, and I agree with Go Phoenix who says it’s 99% doing and 1% knowing, especially for those who have been following Jesus for a while.
Heck, the disciples started “doing” as soon as Jesus said “Follow me,” and they learned the “knowing” along the way. I think we should follow the same model, just like the carpenter doesn’t start swinging a hammer blindly, but he learns by doing alongside those with more knowledge and experience, not by sitting and reading “Advanced Concepts in Semi-Pelagian Carpentry” and “A Survey of Common Besetting Sins in Woodworking.”
Brian,
My, my, my… you certainly have a way with words my friend. I haven’t refuted anything you didn’t say, and in reality, I didn’t refute anything you did say either. In fact, I was in agreement with pretty much what you said about “balance,” which I think was clear in my post.
Remember, this post was in response to Vince’s question regarding besetting sins, not your words on balance (which is why I posted a new blog about it). Of my “6000 words,” only 89 of them actually addressed anything coming from you. The only thing I mentioned about your post was the use of the seesaw picture, which I think inaccurately portrays an “up vs. down” view of things, when I don’t think this issue should be portrayed that way.
You don’t seem to be able to let go of that “either/or” view, even though you keep using the word “And.” It comes out in your writing and you don’t even seem to be aware of it.
After saying: “the words from my original post: Balance. And. Both.” You then said,
There it is. Up down, either or. That isn’t an “and” view of it at all.
I think what I wrote was very clear in making the point that the “doing” comes forth from the “knowing.” Therefore, any moment of time can be used doing both.
Of course, on any specific issue where knowledge has been gained a plenty, more doing, on that issue, will eventually be the larger use of time, over just more learning. And also, as we do more we learn more in the process.
I don’t disagree with that at all, but that wasn’t the point of my post. The usage of time of these issues wasn’t what I was addressing. Rather, my focus was that doing correctly is impossible without first gaining proper knowledge.
The goal of my writing was to explain that Biblical “doing” is based on Biblical “knowing,” and the two aren’t separate.
You humor me when you contradict yourself within the same sentence:
It “has to be” a “balance of both”, but you agree with 99% vs. 1%? That’s balance in your mind? Again, if you are only talking simply about time spent for the mature Christian, you are missing my point completely.
Brian, there was something I left alone in my response to Vince, mostly because I was trying to keep things pithy
and I didn’t want to be unnecessarily negative. But since you have a desire to talk about straw man arguments, I’ll point it out here.
The multiple straw man arguments that you created on your blog, which I left alone, was when you described my “discussion” with Ross by using the words,
First of all, our discussion was not a fight. We are in fact having lunch today, not to fight, but to further discuss. Please don’t use that straw man argument again. It is disingenuous. You don’t elevate the reasonableness of your argument by categorizing other’s as “fights” when they aren’t.
Secondly, with those words, you clearly put Ross in one camp, and myself in another, and pitted us against one another to demonstrate the “sides” of your argument. Again, this was a straw man argument to which I have responded that my view of “balance” is clearly not on either side.
In fact, if you scroll up and see my comments to Doug, you’ll see that I closed with this phrase,
Of course, when you use cute postmodern phrases to sum up your false dichotomies, like,
…you leave room to come back with the “straw-man” argument accusation. Your silly misrepresentation of people’s words and thoughts detract from, not add too, serious discussions of important matters.
The first commenter on this post gave a great example of knowledge leading to doing, to which I dittoed; demonstrating I agree with you when you talk about balance, but I disagree when you describe it as the opposite.
Not only did that first commenter open with an appropriate description, he closed with a Scripture quote that seems to be applicable in your words.
tr
P.S. When I’ve read a pamphlet or article, or something that someone posted, that I thought was helpful to me, my initial comment or thought wasn’t how many words were used. Interesting huh?
Wow Tony. Sorry it took me so long to get to this, but it was well worth the wait. The fact is that people who focus too much on the “doing” don’t realize that doing spawns from the knowing. The things that I do for others are a result of my Knowledge of Christ and the Work of the Holy Spirit within me.
Without knowing what God’s word instructs us to do, we are relying soley on our flawed Human Logic. I don’t trust myself as far as I can throw myself. Only God. Thanks Tony.
Wow Timm, what took me 5811 words you did in 96. Great summary! My “word counting” critics will love you.
tr
Nice work, Tony! I agree that there is often a false dichotomy of knowledge vs. deeds. We need both – and lots of ‘em.
Seriously guys…you all dodge specifics of personal behavior completely. Is that done by design because if you thought for a second that actually talking to your spouses about parenting struggles you are both having or having a sit down conversation with your in laws to discuss boundaries that have been broken was important and did it then you would know how much effort those conversations take. Maybe you all just don’t have the struggles that I do and you all don’t necessarily need to be motivated to “do” much of anything other than pull quotes from the Bible and make statements that imply reading the Bible is the only “doing” that is worth spending time on…if there is something else that needs to be done, please put it in your responses because right now they are jammed up with lots of spiritual back slapping and religious jargon.
Maybe the folks on this board are tackling the tough issues in their lives and just choose to not share the experience for their own personal reasons. It is certainly their right. It drives me crazy to think that folks would have all this practical experience dealing with and achieving victory of some difficult sin in their lives but be too ashamed to share with others on the board. Is the reason because they don’t want others poking around at the deep down parts of their lives that only they have access to?
Maybe they just hide behind “it’s personal” so that you never really have to test all that faith you’ve been reading and writing about. Of course if you live in the world of theology and refuse to take any significant action then it shields you from having to both test the “read the Bible more is the solution to everything” philosophy and find out that you actually have to get out there and put some effort into living your life instead of just reading about how others did it a couple thousand years ago.
I’m not suggesting that my relationships are perfect, just that most of my best Biblical lessons play out in front of my own eyes each day. If that is not happening to you each and everyday, I suggest that you have been missing one of the greatest blessings of life. If it is happening to you, then please share so others can be encouraged and uplifted. You don’t even have to say the word masturbation…use something like sexual impurity if that helps keep the conversation going.
Vince,
You know, the disdain and contempt that drips in your last post is disturbing. If that is what you got out of my words, you have completely missed every point I made.
What in the world did I say that would make you think that I would be defending the dodging of…
???
What in the world did I say that would make you think that I would defend not…
???
These statements are simply ludicrous and contain the exact judgment you profess to dislike in Christians. Amazing.
My article in no way spoke of, endorsed, or defended the dodging, covering up, not discussing, or not acting on any issues within the lives of Christians. My focus was on the necessity for Christians to do it the way the Bible says it should be done.
Which brings me to my main trouble with your last post; what utter disdain for the Word of God you have. Wow. You know, you reveal a lot when you talk about the Word of God, and when you say things like, that I
… (Which by the way, I didn’t say. That is a distortion of my words and point)… and
…and your negative view of Scripture expressed as,
…and also,
Wow. Did I ever say “just read the Bible?” Is that really your view of Scripture? Wow. No wonder we have such a disconnect in communicating Vince.
First of all, I never said the reading of the Bible was the actual “doing,” as you have erroneously implied here. Secondly, I never said that issues shouldn’t be discussed or that actions shouldn’t be taken in life. My point, which seemed to miss you by 10,000 feet, is that the reading and understanding of the Scriptures instructs us as to what we do, how we do it, and what conversations to have to whom. Not that the reading of Scriptures replaces doing that.
Vince did you actually read my words and understand them? You have misrepresented most all of what I said here.
When I spoke of the Bible instructing us on our heart issues so we would know which issues to address, why would you concluded that I would mean we don’t talk about it? When I spoke of the value of accountability groups, Biblically functioning, why would you conclude that it would mean the absence of the things you accuse me here of avoiding and dodging?
You see, I never said don’t do those things you mention, I just am saying that the Bible is our authority and is God’s Word to us on how we should do those things. But when you say things like, it is only “reading about how others did it a couple thousand years ago,” you reveal a serious low view of Scripture. As if it is just some historical narrative of how some people happened to do things then and isn’t applicable to us today. That is not what the Bible is Vince. It is God’s breathed Word to us and contains all that is sufficient for life. It should be our authority in what and how we do everything. Your contempt for it is disturbing.
Vince you act as if you think coming onto a public blog and announcing “I have a problem masturbating” somehow makes one super-spiritual. It does not. Personally, I question the wisdom in that because of the public nature of the blog. But that doesn’t mean that I think we shouldn’t talk about stuff like that with our pastors, church leaders, wives, and small groups. Of course we should! My article’s main point was doing those things, but Biblically! Being transparent and accountable to other Christians is not the same as announcing it on public blogs. I’m saddened that you’ve equated the two.
Perhaps that is why you’ve struggle so much? Maybe you are confessing things publicly to people who mostly don’t know you or care about you (that’s not me btw, before you misunderstand that), instead of to those who have the Biblical knowledge to help with practical things that can help overcome the struggle? It isn’t the act of speaking and confessing to whomever, a priest in a box or a friend on the street, which overcomes sin. It is what comes from that confession, in the Biblical accountability, and the practical Biblical steps, that one receives after confessing, that helps one overcome. I am not advocating being secret and private regarding sin, as you imply and misunderstood. However, using wisdom in who we confess to, following what they say, what their authority is in their advice (should be Scripture), is being wise.
Furthermore Vince, can you not see the judgment, the “I’m better than you,” and the “looking down your nose” attitude when you say,
What is ironic is that you condemn me for saying the Bible has the ways we should do things and that we should follow it, and accuse me of asserting that as my preferential way of handling things, while you do exactly the same things in asserting your preferences and experiences as the guide and authority instead.
The difference is the authority I get my “how” from is the solid unchanging rock of the Scriptures. You have a disdain for those Scriptures and get your authority and your “how,” from the sinking sand of experiences. I must exhort you to change your view of Scripture and authority friend.
I have given you above, practical things to do, which are rooted in Scripture. That doesn’t mean that they are done without conversations, accountability, and transparency. I regret you’ve misunderstood me on that point.
I have also given you quite a number of resources in this original post. Books you can read that will clearly demonstrate that I do not mean the things you have taken from my words (and I’ve offered to lend them to you so you don’t have to buy them). If you are really interested in growing in Christ, practically and Biblically, I can’t imagine you’d pass up that opportunity.
Another good book that I can recommend is Randy Alcorn’s “Purity Principle.” It has very good Biblical advice and practical things men can do to stay pure in all areas of sexual purity: masturbation, lusts of the eyes, adultery, and pornography. It is an excellent resource that will tell you how to “do” and what to “do,” AND is rooted in the knowledge of “Scripture.”
It is my prayer that you’ll take my words clearly and seriously.
Sincerely,
tr
Vince,
While I would “doing” ministry this afternoon, I tried to use my “knowledge” to think of a more pithy way to get across to you what I am trying to say. Here goes, as clear and as concise as I can put it:
The issue isn’t whether we should be “doing” or NOT “doing.” The issue is that we do our “doing” through our worldview (how we see the world). We can get our worldview from culture, experience, other people, or from the Bible.
Christians get their worldview and “do,” through the Bible. Non-Christians have a disdain for it.
tr
For those who are interested in this discussion of balance of orthodoxy (right thinking) vs. orthopraxy (right acting), here is a very interesting radio show where it is flushed out correctly.
Todd Friel in this episode is interviewing a man who is asserting the exactly same arguments that caused me to write this article. Additionally, he similarly accuses Todd of being a “knowledge only” advocate, when Todd isn’t.
After the interview, Todd explains beautifully, the true balance of right acting based on the right thinking of the Bible.
If you’d like to hear it, you can listen to it online here:
“How to practice a Biblical worldview.
Doctrines worth arguing and dying for.”
http://www.wayofthemasterradio.com/podcast/2007/10/10/october-10-2007-hour-1/
Ironically, in this broadcast of The Way of The Master Radio, pro-emergent Tony Jones comments on John MacArthur proclaiming that the Christian should be filled with Scripture knowledge in order to properly change and help others to change.
Where the irony comes in, is that Tony Jones sounds just like you Vince, in his utter disdain for the Word of God.
I point this out for the purpose of demonstrating that despite the fact that you may or not claim to be an “emergent,” this stuff is perhaps influencing you whether you know it or not.
Listen as Jones mocks the Word of God and those who believe it has the power to change lives through understanding it’s teachings:
http://www.wayofthemasterradio.com/podcast/2007/10/09/october-09-2007-hour-1/
Thanks for a very good post. I enjoyed reading it!
I’m glad it was helpful to you Brian. Thanks.
tr
Tony,
It saddens me to think that your entire purpose for this blog is to twist the words of others around in an attempt to “prove” your point. It seems that you continually try to prove to me how important the Bible should to me. Seriously, before moving on, is that your “point”? If so, I completely agree with you that the Bible is essential to me and, hopefully, all Christians. I believe that knowing more about the Bible means doing more to live it out and right now I just wish you were able to write more about the doing portion.
When I list examples of personal struggles in an effort to encourage you to share some of your own, you blast me for it as if I was somehow accusing you of something. You failed to understand that completely. Sometimes I write using inferrential references. On the other hand you have no problem throwing out labels without a shred of proof.
Show me anywhere in my post where I say I have distain or comtempt for the Bible. The Bible has completely shaped who I am and continues to mold me as a person. I get frustrated with Christians like you who do, and I use that term loosely, anything they can to tear down their brother. Is tearing down your brother Biblical?
My plea is for you to get out there and start “living” what you have read and start “using” all that knowledge you have acquired. If you are already then I know that others who read this blog could learn something from reading about some of the victories and defeats of your life so bring it to the surface and post away.
Man, oh man. I just finished re-reading your last response again.
Ya’ll go ahead and bash me to nothing. Slap yourselves on the back for doing it in 6000 words or 97…it’s still tearing down your brother.
I’ve got nothing on you guys. You know way more than most Christians including me. It’s too bad that the only thing you seem to be doing with that knowledge is trashing someone who has attempted to encourage you to be more positive, transparent, uplifting and positive.
I’m out.
Vince, I am astonished at your ability to misunderstand and misrepresent my words. The “entire purpose” of my blog is not to “twist the words of others” to prove a point. I quoted your words, not twisted them.
I’ve stated my point in 5811 words, and just above in a few. I said purposely pithy for you,
It doesn’t get much clearer than that.
Vince I agree with you that “knowing more about the Bible means doing more to live it out,” and I am not sure what I have said to make you think I believe otherwise. In the 6000 words you mocked, I spoke of several things to “do” in regard to overcoming sin. I’ve made many recommendations of resources that will help in the “doing” of specific struggles. Things that have helped me and I believe will help you and others. Have you “done” any of them that I have suggested already?
Pardon me Vince if I misunderstood your intentions and was presumptuous on that, but I don’t think so entirely. You must think I was born yesterday to not recognize what you were attempting to do on Brian’s blog and on mine with that “encouragement” to share personal things. Like you said in your last post, you’ve “got nothing on” me. Which is precisely what you seemed to be trying to do with that, “get something.” I’m willing to discuss the issues and share things that have helped, and confess sins to appropriate people, but I’m not falling for that trap. I believe you know it was a trap, because you made a wager with Brian on it, which is posted on his blog. The “I told you so” comment you made? Come on Vince, did you not think I knew what you were trying to pull out of me?
There is no humility in publicly listing personal struggles. When you boastfully and proudly announce to the world your problems, you embarrass and hurt others, bring attention and attempt to bring glory to yourself for being so “humble” to announce them. The goal should be to bring glory to God, not to ourselves, by overcoming our struggle with sin, by repentance to God and to appropriate others, and overcoming sin through the cross. The purpose of airing our sins is not to exploit them for personal gain, but the glorify God in His ability to help us change and overcome them.
Of course, this is a perfect example of the kind of destruction I spoke in my article. Here you are using methods of the world and of men, which ultimately hurt your wife and family (according to your own words above), while the Bible, which you seem to disdain, contains the real answers to your struggles. Have you considered how your public confessions may have hurt your wife and family, while only bringing attention to yourself instead of glory to God?
You have an example of that? Notice Vince, that when I respond to your words, I quote exactly what you said, even with emphasis at times, in order that you won’t misunderstand exactly what I am responding to. It would be nice when you make accusations like this that you would quote the words you are referring to as evidence for your claims.
I didn’t say you said you had contempt. I said the words you used were in contempt. Like I just said, I quoted each phrase I was referring to and demonstrated my point and why I was saying it. Scroll up if you missed it, because you seem to be missing much in what I’ve been saying to you.
If you listen to that audio segment of Tony Jones mocking John MacArthur, you will eerily ear the identical disdain from him that you had above; that I quoted, not twisted.
Vince, the irony of your words is amazing. What do you mean by “I use that term loosely?” Are you claiming I’m not a Christian because of what I am telling you? Have I become your enemy because I’ve told you the truth? Do you not see the judgment you condemn in your own words? In that phrase you question if I am a Christian, and in the next sentence you say I’m, tearing you down? Amazing. Do you proofread what you write?
Vince, I am not “tearing you down” brother. I have not questioned your claims to be a Christian as you have me. As Christians we do not tear down people but we are commanded to tear down false teaching and errors when they are taught.
Notice what Paul tells us,
We do tear down error and we do correct knowledge that is wrong about God. Ideas, not people, are to be torn down. You have tore me down in your words above, I have not spoken to you in the manner that you have spoken to me.
Vince, F.F. Bruce said that 47% of the New Testament is apologetic in nature: Giving answers, reasons for faith, “making a defense” for the truth of the gospel. Have you ever read the book of Jude? Its only 24 verses in the whole book; I think you’ll be surprised in the language used to describe those who teach error, in this book, and in the entire New Testament. It is a misnomer that we are to sit in the presence of error and in the name of “love” let it go unspoken to, or uncorrected. We are to speak the truth, in love, but we are to speak the truth.
Look through the book of Acts and see what Paul did each time he went to a new city and to the synagogue in that city. You’ll be amazed at what his common practice was. In Acts 17 it says when Paul saw all the idols in Athens he was “provoked in the spirit.” If we aren’t provoked in the spirit in the presence of error, something is wrong.
Confronting error with the truth is not the same as “tearing down” people. I regret you don’t see the difference, and that you can’t see you are doing exactly what you condemn when you actually do tear down me with your words.
You know Vince, seriously, how can you possible say,
???
When you use the word “start” you are implying that now that I am currently not doing that. How can you say that when you have no idea what I “do” with my knowledge? I agree with you generally, that we are all imperfect and could “do” a lot more; especially me. But the implications and charges of your words are inaccurate when you plea for me to “start,” from a position of complete ignorance.
Seriously and honesty Vince, can I talk to you man-to-man here, since it is just you and I reading this? ☺ You know whom you really frustrate when you talk like that? My wife. When she read your last 3 comments she was literally fuming at your words. You know why? Because she knows what you accuse me of is so far from the truth.
My wife and my marriage is one thing God has used to place me on the anvil of His workbench. She knows what I do with my knowledge and found your words ludicrous. I will not boast about what I “do,” but I can tell you, those who know me find your charges far out of line, and they also recognize that you have absolutely no knowledge in which to make such an allegation; that I need to “start” doing something with my knowledge. Simply arrogant and ridiculous comments.
“If?”
You haven’t read my blog much have you? You haven’t a clue what I’ve been doing, have you? Are you not able to see the judgment you disdain in your own words?
I am not sure why you are seeking to have something “on me.” It isn’t a competition Vince about who knows more. I’ve never claimed that doing the Christian life isn’t important; I’ve never claimed you weren’t doing it either. I’ve only stated that the doing we do should be based in the Bible we profess to believe. Why is that so offensive to you?
Notice your words “only” and “seem” Vince. That’s where your error here is. What actually “is,” apparently “seems” to be something different to you. I wish we could synchronize what “seems” to be that to you, with what really “is.” You apparently still have that seesaw view of “balance” between knowledge and action that I originally addressed, and assume that because you perceive I have knowledge that I automatically am not “doing.” I don’t know what I can do to bring you to understand that error, except state it and explain it. I think I’ve done that adequately here, and regret you haven’t “ears to hear” it.
Vince I haven’t trashed you, and I apologize if I’ve said things in a way that makes you think I have been. I do not think your words and allegations of my dodging and covering up sin, knowing so much I don’t do anything, and am “loosely” a Christian, are hardly words that are meant to “encourage” me as you state in your closing. I don’t hold that against you and forgive you for those words. I think you have severely misunderstood me. My prayer is that God will use this dialog to eventually bring you to understand my points I am actually saying and not the errors you perceive in them.
Peace,
tr
A very good article from “Loving The Word” regarding the necessity of knowing the Word of God for proper actions:
Here’s an excerpt:
To read the whole article go here:
http://lovingtheword.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/2-kings-21-warnings-for-the-emergent-church/
Tony,
Great post and you are right on. It saddens me that those who disagree or oppose you feel the need to turn the discussion into an ugly debate. The one thing that is constant and true is this world is the Bible. You remember that old song, “The B-I-B-L-E, yes that’s the book for me, I stand alone on the Word of God, the B-I-B-L-E”…well, I think we all could benefit from studying it more. There is no way to learn how to be more like Christ without it. Because of Adam and Eve, we are all born with a sin nature. We have been commanded to be holy because God is holy (paraphrased, I Peter 1:15-16) and the one and only way to do that is to study His Word. We all have areas in our life that we struggle with and I have found that the more I work on being more like Christ, everything else falls into place. The more I hide God’s Word in my heart, the more convicted I am about my sin and knowing how God hates sin, I am convicted to change! I would like to recommend the book “The Pursuit of Holiness” by Jerry Bridges. It is a very thorough book that uses a lot of scripture to show us why we are to be holy and how we can do it. He also has a follow-up, “The Pursuit of Godliness”, but I haven’t read it yet.
In closing, I hope those who have commented or plan to comment will keep this in mind…”Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy, without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Hebrews 12:14
Peace out TR-
Susan
Thanks Susan for your testimony and recommendations. Those are good words. My wife has that book by Bridges but I haven’t read it yet. Looking forward to it.
I really liked your line, “There is no way to learn how to be more like Christ without it.”
Amen sister!
tr
These two principles together, from a church’s website, demonstrates a great balance of “knowing” AND “doing.”
Here’s the “knowing”
And here’s the “doing.”
Great balance. Amen!
tr
Great post, Tony. It’s hard to believe that there is actually a debate about whether “knowing” the Word is essential for “doing” the Christian life.
The other day I saw a clip of Steven Furtick. He directly pits “knowing” the Word against “doing”. According to Furtick, those who want deep teaching of the Word and want to know how to interpret it are fat and lazy Pharisees who obviously don’t want to “do” anything. He says that those who want to go “verse by verse through Galatians” (for example) just want to pull their “fat butts up to the table and eat and eat and eat…” He claims the church is FULL of such people:
http://www.extremetheology.com/2007/08/pitting-evangel.html
(Aside: I decided to listen to a podcast from Pine Ridge Church. According to the “Pimpin’ Jesus” message, those who criticize their church and methods are just up at the “buffet” getting fat. He claims the church is full of these “spiritual gluttons”. Hmmmm. I haven’t read all the criticism mentioned. I’ve probably only read a small fraction. But it is interesting that those who want deep teaching of the Word and those that are giving criticism are both accused of being the same type of person-a fat spiritual glutton)
I would type more but there is a sparkly shape book being thrown at my laptop by my 18-month old and he’s looking very upset with me.
I know the church at large is full of people who are “hearers of the Word” and not “doers”. However, these generally aren’t the people begging for a deeper teaching of God’s Word. I don’t think the church is FULL of people wanting to go verse by verse through Galatians. Unfortunately, the church is FULL of people who don’t even know where Galatians is in their Bibles. It’s FULL of people who want their “ears tickled” and don’t want to hear “sound doctrine”. Generally speaking (and I say generally because there are those who want to be “puffed up with knowledge”) those people who want to know more about God’s Word are those who love it and therefore are convicted to live by it.
Note: the reason the comment about the throwing book was in the middle of that post was because….well….of the throwing book….:/
Very true barefoot. I listened to that message too and was troubled by the things you said as well others. Specifically troubling was the accusation that churches that use their Christmas and Easter programs as outreach and evangelism are “pimpin’ Jesus.” Supposedly, because that is the only time they do it. And how does he know that’s the only time it is done?
Personally, I’ve seen some Christmas and Easter programs that have explained the gospel quite well and glorified God to the highest. And usually churches that do that, outreach in other areas, as well as in the daily lives of their members. The charge may be true about some Christans and churches, but the paint brushing of everyone, or even the majority, into this category is quite disturbing.
I also agree with you that wanting deeper teachings from God’s Word is not a bad thing, and it should not be pitted against “doing.” Certainly if that is all someone is doing then a word of correction is appropriate. But as you say, usually it isn’t those who are actually wanting to go deeper in God’s Word that are consistently not doing. It usually those that are not in God’s Word that aren’t “doing.”
What really saddens me is the arrogance displayed in the claim to know what others are doing when they haven’t a clue about those they accuse of this: both other Christians and other churches.
I’ve listened to most of those messages, and each one is basically a venting session about how no other church in town is “doing” anything, and they need to be here to save the county from 400 churches doing nothing. Don’t get me wrong, I am not against other churches planting and being successful, but the hubris displayed of “God told me to start this church,” “we will obliterate anyone that gets in the way” and “we will dominate the county because no one else is doing anything” attitude is disturbing. To be honest, it is boasting that sounds eerily similar to the boasting of Joseph Smith.
Anyone is encouraged to start a church. Plant it! Preach the gospel! Reach the lost! Amen! But don’t do it with a chip on your shoulders like the reason that there are people in the community who don’t go to church is because you weren’t here. Some people don’t go to church, not because they haven’t an appealing place to go, but because they are at enmity with God.
tr
P.S. I understand the book throwing! ☺ I’m off to play Barbie-doll, pray for me!
Hey Tony, I just finished reading your whole group of comments here. Great job of not only defending yourself but defending the gospel as well. Give God the glory!
Thanks for reading an the encouragement Brian. I think of Paul’s words when you say that,
“I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God’s grace with me. God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.” Phil 1:3-11
Amen!
Pastor Jason Roberts has an interesting quote on his blog today at:
Transperancy or Vulnerability?
http://jasonroberts.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/transperancy-or-vulnerability/
In this post he has a quote from Caesar Kalinowski which reads,
“As a church seeks to see the gospel transform their community and lead them to mission, sin/idols are exposed. One potential danger is that people who enter into the life of the community are willing to be transparent, but they are not vulnerable. Meaning, you can have a person publicly profess sin, being very transparent BUT they have no intention of letting other people speak into their life toward change. This false transparency appears like humility but it is a charade of self-righteousness behind the ‘right things to say’.“
(Emphasis his)
He then gives a testimony as a pastor of witnessing this in people he’s pastored.
This is the wisdom I mentioned in comments above, that needs to be recognized in all our hearts, when it comes to what we confess to God, and what we confess to appropriate people.
There is an appropriate time, place, and audience of when we practice “confessing to one another” and wisdom must be used therein. Part of that wisdom is the consideration of who we may hurt in the process of clearing our own guilty hearts and minds.
Using wisdom in this process is not equal to “dodging” or covering up sin.
tr
Great post Tony. This was really packed with a lot of good points. It really hit home for me personally as well.
In my own life, even though this wasn’t your intended point, this has reminded me how when I am not putting proper emphasis on God’s word as the sole source of life, it can really lead to “defeating” sin by too much self reliance or by losing power in the battle that is available to us as believers.
Thanks Matt. I’ve prayed for it to be useful to those with ears to hear. I appreciate the encouragement brother.
tr
Here is some good resources for those struggling who may be looking for help and stumble upon this blog:
Helpful “Struggling With Pornography” Video
http://competentcounseling.com/2009/02/09/helpful-struggling-with-pornography-video/
Why do Christians still struggle? – the confessions of an impostor
http://www.covenanteyes.com/blog/2008/10/06/why-do-christians-still-struggle-the-confessions-of-an-impostor/
tr
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