Here is the audio from the VCY America Rally held at the Waukesha Exposition Center on October 6 with Pastor Jeff Noblit of Anchored in Truth Ministries. The message was over an hour, but nobody moved because all were gripped by the truth being preached.
This message describes what a biblical church looks like at a time when many churches have utterly abandoned the Scriptural model of ministry.
HT: Ingrid@Slice
Filed under: Apologetics, Church Life, Emergent Church, Evangelism, Methodists, PCUSA, Purpose Driven Madness, Seeker Sensitive
What about the Christ driven church?
Not that the Bible isn’t a great tool. But it isn’t where the life is.
The Bible is Christ’s Words. It is inseparable from “Christ” because that is how we know about Him.
Read John 5:39. Pick your own version.
Yes, very nice verse, and true. It doesn’t refute what I said before.
I think I know where you are going with this. Do you know Iggy? Are you espousing the emergent teaching that “Christ is all we need, and it doesn’t matter how one defines Him?”
You said the scriptures are inseparable from Christ. He doesn’t seem to say quite the same thing in that verse and those surrounding it.
How does those verses teach what you saying? The only way you can come away with those verses saying what you are, is if you pour that meaning into them to start with. That is not what Christ was teaching.
Jesus said He IS the Truth. He also said God’s Word IS truth.
The scriptures do not give life.
Christ does.
How does that make God inseparable from the words on a page?
I’m not saying “Don’t read the Bible.”
I’m saying that God is bigger by far than the scriptures. Why do you seem to want to narrow Him down to something that you can get a handle on?
No, you are missing Jesus’ point. He was not saying as you claim, that the Scriptures do not give life. He was telling them that they were mis-interpreting the Scriptures, and that their false understanding of Scriptures was inadequate for life.
He was teaching them that the Scriptures pointed to Him, but they were missing that point and thus had no life. If they were to CORRECTLY read the Scriptures, they would believe in Him, because they pointed to Him and He was Life.
Jesus’ point was not that the Scriptures didn’t contain life, but was over their misunderstanding of them. Interestingly, it seems to be your same problem.
Rules vs. Life.
That is exactly what He was saying. I’ll elaborate later.
Ron,
Please do elaborate. You are mistaken if you think that the existence of life means the ignoring of rules. Christ clearly taught that one who follows Him will obey Him. Not for salvation, but because they are saved.
Jesus did rebuke a misunderstanding of Scriptures that produced doctrines that pointed away from Him. But he asserted clearly proper understandings of Scriptures that produced doctrines that pointed to Him. In this teaching, He never intended for followers to say, “I have life in Christ, therefore I don’t have to obey Christ’s teachings.” This seems to be what you are advocating.
Your’s is a popular contemporary teaching that many like, which allows them to enjoy their sin while claiming to be Christians. Christ will spew those out of His mouth. A Spirit-filled person has a changed life that is evidence of his conversion.
I would highly recommend John MacArthur’s book “The Gospel According To Jesus.”
http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-According-Jesus-John-MacArthur/dp/0310394910/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196537507&sr=8-1
By the way, speaking of that, in your bombarding of questions, I have given you very good and ample resources to partake of to understand what I have been trying to say in answering your questions.
So far you have not referenced any of them. If you are sincerely wanting to understand where I am coming from, I’d appreciate it if you’d read or listen to some of them before continuing the dialog.
Thanks,
tr
Albert Mohler answers the theology you espouse on the following eisodes of his show:
http://albertmohler.com/radio_show.php?cdate=2006-04-17
http://albertmohler.com/radio_show.php?cdate=2007-11-21
“You are mistaken if you think that the existence of life means the ignoring of rules.”
Misunderstanding again. I did not say to ignore the rules.
They are there to help and guide us as we go down the road of life.
But my ability or inability to follow them do not make me or anyone else saved.
They help me. But do not give life.
God gives life. He alone.
You think I do not study the scriptures?
You think I do not love the law that God has given?
If you think these things, you would be wrong.
But there is something much more important than the scriptures we have been given. The scriptures are important. Even Abraham had a set… No, wait. He didn’t.
There was something that was a basis for those rules that he had. And that every child of God has.
It would be called the deeper magic, if you were in Narnia.
The scriptures help. They definitely do. And I wouldn’t want to be without them.
But they have not life.
Christ has life.
When someone becomes a child of God, He sees them as He would see Christ. Me. Little unworthy me. I deserve not such grace. Yet it has been given. Did you need a Bible reference?
Stephen,
I think what I have said is very consistent with this.
I have no idea what you do regarding these Stephen and would never presume to know. I do think your understanding of Scripture has been clouded by false teachers like Rob Bell. It is my prayer in the name of Christ that you would have that deception removed from your eyes so you can see the truths the Scriptures really teach and not get hung up over what are springs and what are bricks and other Rob Bell “isms” that confuse things.
The Scriptures are very clear. Doctrines from the Scriptures are very important and necessary.
I am leery of anyone that looks down on Scripture like this. We can’t look down on the Scriptures like this and claim that Christ has life but the Scriptures are less important. Of course life comes from Christ. The Scriptures are God’s Word, and without them we no nothing about Christ. I do not understand why emergent folks feel the need to pit the Scripture against Christ and act like one is of merit and the other is just a little important. No one is worshiping the words on a page. But we do recognize that the Scriptures are God’s Word to us, and they are how we know about Christ. Of course the life comes from Christ, but without the Scriptures telling us about that we know nothing of it.
In the garden the serpent questioned God’s Word, and he is still doing it today.
I agree with this statement. It is Biblical. The rest of what you have said sounds like Rob Bell after 3 beers.
I’m not pitting one against the other.
But knowing that each has a place.
Do you actually believe that the holy scriptures are EQUAL to God? Really believe THAT?
When have I belittled the scriptures? They have an important place, but seem to be saying that they could easily sit on God’s throne. If I’m misunderstanding, let me know what it is you are really trying to say.
“The rest of what you have said sounds like Rob Bell after 3 beers.”
(sigh) Back to insults. I’m trying to be civil and promote goodwill and you insult one Christian after another.
Unless, of course, you have a word from God that Bell or myself isn’t a Christian. Then by all means, insult away. It’s how God treats His enemies. Destroys them… Or did He die for those who were yet His enemies?
“We can’t look down on the Scriptures like this and claim that Christ has life but the Scriptures are less important.”
This concerns me terribly. You again equate the laws of God with God.
Life isn’t about the scriptures.
Life is about Christ.
In Christ alone.
“No one is worshiping the words on a page.”
Then why do you keep equating the scriptures with Christ?
Friend, I never compared Christ and the Scriptures, but declared that they are two different things with their own purposes. You began that discussion of comparing them. I don’t say one is more important than the other, you do. The Bible is how we know about Christ.
Jesus Christ is God, in the flesh. The Bible is His Word. They aren’t hierarchal and needed to be pitted or compared against one another.
For the record, I wasn’t insulting you, I was describing the nature of the discussion. Rob Bell has influenced you, obviously, to your detrement. That isn’t an insult, it is an accurate description.
Ron, this might help you:
The Straw Man Fallacy
http://mikeratliff.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/the-straw-man-fallacy/
I’m not comparing. Just giving each their proper place.
But as I wrote in the other comment, I see where you are. I will wait. But you have given me food for thought. It saddens me, but I will digest and move on.
btw, I thank you for the Rob Bell detrement comment. To be honest, he just helped me to articulate what I already knew.
If you ever want to stop by and look at the tripe on my site. Feel free. No moderation needed.
I’m glad you’ve got food for thought. It saddens me to see that you seem to flippantly reject what I am saying, and just move on.
If you’d like to have a serious conversation, I’m always open. I’d like for your to look at and listen to the resources I’ve given you in order to make an honest attempt to understanding what I am saying first though.
The “tripe” comment was unnecessary as I never said anything about your site in that manner. If it helps to martyr yourself to confirm your error at my expense, help yourself.
For the record, next time, if you don’t bombard multiple posts with rapid-fire insincere questions you won’t be moderated here either. If you do, you will.
Ron if you really want to understand the dangers of Rob Bell’s teachings you’ll spend some time at this site. Ken Silva has done some great research on him.
http://www.apprising.org/archives/rob_bell/index.html
[...] articles from the Shepherd’s conference that are very valuable regarding current discussions on this and other blogs. If you’ve come here from those blogs I highly recommend spending some [...]
Greetings,
I happened upon this discussion and couldn’t help but to be moved by Ron’s original comment. He stated:
“What about the Christ driven church? Not that the Bible isn’t a great tool. But it isn’t where the life is.”
I would suggest, rather declare, that THE BIBLE IS CHRIST. So making GOD’S WORD the focus of the church is not only logical, but the safest approach to spreading “God’s Word” according to the great commission, which Jesus, himself commanded us.
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD.”
So you see, THE WORD, being the BIBLE is God.
And
Jesus said unto him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? HE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? –John 14:9
“For THE WORD OF GOD IS LIVING and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” –Hebrews 4:12
So I stand in agreement with the concept of a BIBLE-DRIVEN CHURCH as oppose to any man-made philosophy or methodology disguised as theology, because Scripture declares that the Bible is the WORD of GOD and that it IS GOD who is JESUS, our CHRIST (Savior).
1 Peter 23-25 “For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the LIVING and ENDURING WORD OF GOD. For, “All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD STANDS FOREVER. And this is the WORD that was preached to you.”
~Blessings
Thanks “Loving The Word.” That’s a good word. I loved the video on your blog! I’m gonna blog on that soon!
http://lovingtheword.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/emergent-methodology-dressed-as-theology/
tr