Comments on: The Question of Truth and the Emerging Church http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/ "...in the defense and confirmation of the gospel" Phil 1:7 Mon, 28 Dec 2009 15:30:33 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Quintin http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-10601 Quintin Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:02:14 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-10601 You want Tony Jones' opinion of the bible? Apparently it's a [expletive] scary book... <a href="http://churchandpomo.typepad.com/conversation/2007/03/why_is_the_emer.html" rel="nofollow">{original source]</a> Why? Is it necessary? Is it righteous? Edifying? Nice? You want Tony Jones’ opinion of the bible?

Apparently it’s a [expletive] scary book…

{original source]

Why? Is it necessary? Is it righteous? Edifying? Nice?

]]> By: galatiansc4v16 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9080 galatiansc4v16 Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:05:17 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9080 Quintin, I didn't know the email link was broke. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I've fixed it and it is on the bottom right column of this blog now. tr Quintin,

I didn’t know the email link was broke. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I’ve fixed it and it is on the bottom right column of this blog now.

tr

]]> By: Quintin http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9071 Quintin Tue, 31 Jul 2007 04:49:21 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9071 TR, could you fix your e-mail link on the main page or just send me an e-mail - you should have it... I have something I wish to discuss off-board. I have very good reason. TR, could you fix your e-mail link on the main page or just send me an e-mail – you should have it… I have something I wish to discuss off-board. I have very good reason.

]]> By: galatiansc4v16 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9055 galatiansc4v16 Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:37:15 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9055 Thanks to you to Jim. I think you did convey the right attitude too, I just wanted to point it out to the lurkers who are following this, that we are not in this for the fleshly battle of who is right and who is wrong. This is a spiritual battle and we recognize that and appeal to God with petitions for those who are in error that their eyes may be opened. tr Thanks to you to Jim. I think you did convey the right attitude too, I just wanted to point it out to the lurkers who are following this, that we are not in this for the fleshly battle of who is right and who is wrong. This is a spiritual battle and we recognize that and appeal to God with petitions for those who are in error that their eyes may be opened.

tr

]]> By: galatiansc4v16 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9045 galatiansc4v16 Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:11:40 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9045 Thanks Laz and Quin for listening. I'm sure that perspective helped in understanding my initial comments and why criticism of Tony Jones talking like that makes emergents like Iggy go postal. Quintin, I think the most enlightening statment was when you said you'd have to listen to it again. Cha Ching! That is the goal of the emergent "converstion." Be so non-specific and unclear as to say lots of words but conclude nothing. Praying, tr Thanks Laz and Quin for listening. I’m sure that perspective helped in understanding my initial comments and why criticism of Tony Jones talking like that makes emergents like Iggy go postal.

Quintin, I think the most enlightening statment was when you said you’d have to listen to it again. Cha Ching! That is the goal of the emergent “converstion.” Be so non-specific and unclear as to say lots of words but conclude nothing.

Praying,
tr

]]> By: Quintin http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9039 Quintin Mon, 30 Jul 2007 06:32:03 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9039 Also had a listen, very interesting. I am not sure I understood why TJ went into inter-racial marriages. It did not seem to make sense. I have to listen to it <i>again</i>. I think that the fact that they have no uniforming doctrinal statement is the scariest thing. In Acts they kept lists of people who belonged to the church, and they have statements like: "There is no other name by which a man may be saved." This does not seem an unreasonable request. However, before arguing with an emergent, I have realised it is important to find out what they are emerging <i>from</i>, and what, exactly, that means. <a href="http://sola5.blogspot.com/2007/07/emerging-truth.html" rel="nofollow">I can say with firmness now that truth is not a person</a>. There is a person that is truth, but that is not the same thing. Jesus -> Truth (like the bible says) not Truth -> Jesus. I think we should get Atheists to emerge. At least the nothingness would get better for them. I agree with praying for Iggy. I couldn't take it anymore. If he does not publish my comment to <a href="http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/2007/07/crn-off-deep-end-ken-silva-starts-to.html" rel="nofollow">this blog</a>, I will. Also had a listen, very interesting. I am not sure I understood why TJ went into inter-racial marriages. It did not seem to make sense. I have to listen to it again.

I think that the fact that they have no uniforming doctrinal statement is the scariest thing. In Acts they kept lists of people who belonged to the church, and they have statements like: “There is no other name by which a man may be saved.” This does not seem an unreasonable request.

However, before arguing with an emergent, I have realised it is important to find out what they are emerging from, and what, exactly, that means.

I can say with firmness now that truth is not a person. There is a person that is truth, but that is not the same thing. Jesus -> Truth (like the bible says) not Truth -> Jesus.

I think we should get Atheists to emerge. At least the nothingness would get better for them.

I agree with praying for Iggy. I couldn’t take it anymore. If he does not publish my comment to this blog, I will.

]]> By: Laz http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9035 Laz Mon, 30 Jul 2007 04:23:26 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9035 Finally got around to listening to this conversation. I wonder why Tony didn't answer the JW question? If he did by providing the interracial marriage illustration, that is a pretty poor answer. Does he mean to imply that JW's will one day be welcomed as brothers by the Church? I doubt that the JWs themselves will go for this. Also Jones states that the Council of Ephesus took place 2 years before Chalcedon, it was more like 20 years but what's 18 years between friends? Finally got around to listening to this conversation.

I wonder why Tony didn’t answer the JW question? If he did by providing the interracial marriage illustration, that is a pretty poor answer. Does he mean to imply that JW’s will one day be welcomed as brothers by the Church? I doubt that the JWs themselves will go for this.

Also Jones states that the Council of Ephesus took place 2 years before Chalcedon, it was more like 20 years but what’s 18 years between friends?

]]> By: Jim W http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8970 Jim W Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:56:35 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8970 Thanks, Tony. I appreciate you and your blog and you are absolutely correct; we, too should be praying as well. I didn't convey that well, if at all, but you said it, and I do agree. Thanks again. Thanks, Tony. I appreciate you and your blog and you are absolutely correct; we, too should be praying as well. I didn’t convey that well, if at all, but you said it, and I do agree. Thanks again.

]]> By: galatiansc4v16 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8968 galatiansc4v16 Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:17:30 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8968 Well said Jim. I think I have to agree with you and change my mind from previous statements regarding a disability. What you've written seems much more plausible in light of the evidence of his words. Right now, I think we should all "stop blogging" and pause to pray for Iggy. Not that we shouldn't keep responding here, but that we should deliberately take a moment to pause and pray for him and for his eyes to be opened to the things Jim has said. As we all know, this is not a battle of the flesh or words, but a spiritual battle that can't be won without the Spirit's conviction and movement. Let's do that, tr Well said Jim. I think I have to agree with you and change my mind from previous statements regarding a disability. What you’ve written seems much more plausible in light of the evidence of his words.

Right now, I think we should all “stop blogging” and pause to pray for Iggy. Not that we shouldn’t keep responding here, but that we should deliberately take a moment to pause and pray for him and for his eyes to be opened to the things Jim has said. As we all know, this is not a battle of the flesh or words, but a spiritual battle that can’t be won without the Spirit’s conviction and movement.

Let’s do that,
tr

]]> By: Jim W http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8967 Jim W Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:12:05 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8967 iggy, stating facts is not name-calling. You may not like it, but sometimes the truth hurts. I have no doubt that you are an intelligent person. But... It is obvious that you have a persecution complex. That has nothing to do with intelligence, it has everything to do with your own sense of worth. You also have a driving need to be right, no matter what. You cannot just carry on a conversation in one place, you have to carry it over to other venues and distort the facts even further. To even try to twist anything I or Quintin or Tony has said is indicative of a serious reading comprehension issue. And I don't think you have an actual disability (such as dyslexia), I think you just are so blinded by your need to be right that you refuse to truly read what is written. So, iggy, to sum up: stating the truth isn't name calling. You are the liar and twister of statements. Any rational person reading your diatribes can see that. It's easy to say you've received many e-mails supporting your point, I could say the same. I don't need to lie, however, to build my own ego. This isn't my blog, so I can't tell you to go away, but I think it's time for you to quit blogging, both here and your own place, and spend that time on your knees in prayer. You need to recognize the lies and slander you are spreading are hateful and a harm to the body of Christ. iggy, stating facts is not name-calling. You may not like it, but sometimes the truth hurts. I have no doubt that you are an intelligent person. But…
It is obvious that you have a persecution complex. That has nothing to do with intelligence, it has everything to do with your own sense of worth. You also have a driving need to be right, no matter what. You cannot just carry on a conversation in one place, you have to carry it over to other venues and distort the facts even further.
To even try to twist anything I or Quintin or Tony has said is indicative of a serious reading comprehension issue. And I don’t think you have an actual disability (such as dyslexia), I think you just are so blinded by your need to be right that you refuse to truly read what is written.
So, iggy, to sum up: stating the truth isn’t name calling. You are the liar and twister of statements. Any rational person reading your diatribes can see that. It’s easy to say you’ve received many e-mails supporting your point, I could say the same. I don’t need to lie, however, to build my own ego.
This isn’t my blog, so I can’t tell you to go away, but I think it’s time for you to quit blogging, both here and your own place, and spend that time on your knees in prayer. You need to recognize the lies and slander you are spreading are hateful and a harm to the body of Christ.

]]> By: galatiansc4v16 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8965 galatiansc4v16 Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:36:54 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8965 Iggy, I love the way you spun the James White comments as if you guys had some intellectual discussion with him. He came to your site because his search engine caught that you said he “had issues.” (Because he noticed that you attacked him even when you had properly identified him). He then explained that your identification mistake was unnecessary because he doesn’t run around the blogosphere in secret, but clearly labels his comments on blogs as himself, so no one can be misconstrue him. I am very familiar with James White and his ministry, and as a reformed theologian he would reject everything you’ve written about, if he had time for your nonsense. Oh that I wish he’d chime in on the discussions, as I am sure he’d come away with the same treatment others who demonstrate your errors do. You said, <Blockquote> “I have not judged you in the same way… you are saying things about emergents that are false.” </Blockquote> Hello!?!? Iggy, you did it in the very next sentence. <Blockquote> “I have tried to explain why they are false and you take that as an attack on your person instead of being able to hear that the thing stated was not true.” </Blockquote> No Iggy, you don’t explain things that you think are false, but you couple incoherent words with responses to attacks that don’t exist. I explained to you earlier that if you would respond with an example of something you think is in error, and do it without coupling it with how you think people are persecuting you, I’ll respond to the substance of your words. But as along as you continue to include how everyone is mistreating you (when they aren’t), your words will continue to be ignored because a coherent dialog with you is impossible while you do that. Quinten, remember above when I told you about Iggy’s words and said, <Blockquote> “So many times when I read his responses, I say to myself, “What? I have not done/said that, but you are currently doing exactly that with what you are saying!” It is twisted double-speak.” </Blockquote> Well here is a prime example: <Blockquote> You cannot separate a falsehood that is stated from a correction without taking it on a personal level and stooping got (sic) name calling and attacking me on a personal level… and Jim W. is even worse. </Blockquote> tr Iggy,

I love the way you spun the James White comments as if you guys had some intellectual discussion with him. He came to your site because his search engine caught that you said he “had issues.” (Because he noticed that you attacked him even when you had properly identified him). He then explained that your identification mistake was unnecessary because he doesn’t run around the blogosphere in secret, but clearly labels his comments on blogs as himself, so no one can be misconstrue him.

I am very familiar with James White and his ministry, and as a reformed theologian he would reject everything you’ve written about, if he had time for your nonsense.

Oh that I wish he’d chime in on the discussions, as I am sure he’d come away with the same treatment others who demonstrate your errors do.

You said,

“I have not judged you in the same way… you are saying things about emergents that are false.”

Hello!?!? Iggy, you did it in the very next sentence.

“I have tried to explain why they are false and you take that as an attack on your person instead of being able to hear that the thing stated was not true.”

No Iggy, you don’t explain things that you think are false, but you couple incoherent words with responses to attacks that don’t exist.

I explained to you earlier that if you would respond with an example of something you think is in error, and do it without coupling it with how you think people are persecuting you, I’ll respond to the substance of your words. But as along as you continue to include how everyone is mistreating you (when they aren’t), your words will continue to be ignored because a coherent dialog with you is impossible while you do that.

Quinten, remember above when I told you about Iggy’s words and said,

“So many times when I read his responses, I say to myself, “What? I have not done/said that, but you are currently doing exactly that with what you are saying!” It is twisted double-speak.”

Well here is a prime example:

You cannot separate a falsehood that is stated from a correction without taking it on a personal level and stooping got (sic) name calling and attacking me on a personal level… and Jim W. is even worse.

tr

]]> By: galatiansc4v16 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8963 galatiansc4v16 Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:24:33 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8963 Iggy, Your alternate reality is refreshing. tr Iggy,

Your alternate reality is refreshing.

tr

]]> By: iggy http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8961 iggy Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:11:07 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8961 Quintin, Your confession is refreshing. Thanks, iggy Quintin,

Your confession is refreshing.

Thanks,
iggy

]]> By: iggy http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8960 iggy Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:10:20 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8960 tr, I have not judged you in the same way... you are saying things about emergents that are false. I have tried to explain why they are false and you take that as an attack on your person instead of being able to hear that the thing stated was not true. You cannot separate a falsehood that is stated from a correction without taking it on a personal level and stooping got name calling and attacking me on a personal level... and Jim W. is even worse. When I tried further explain Tony's position on things a little clearer than Moore allowed in that 20 minute show in which Moore talked over TJ you just tole me I needed psychological help... I then tried to further explain it and you guys just got nastier. I have received emails from people who have read theses threads who can see this and have yet to receive any that agree with you and how you have treated me. I have even converse in a very civil an graceful manner with the real James R White out of this who treated me with great grace. You could learn from him. Yet, I suppose even this last comment will be met with nastiness of Jim W and yourself so it really is a wasted of time. The only truth war is that I see is that one side want to actually talk and discuss things and the other wants to make things up about us and put us down and then call us names. The question Moore asked about the emerging JW's was so ignorant and irrelevant to us... JW's in their own structure would not and cannot "emerge" and it showed the true lack of understanding Moore has. Tony was answering the question on another level altogether in that he heard Moore asking "if truth changes"... and Tony stated in effect, "No, but our perspective of it changes." then gave the example of interracial marriage. Tony gracefully let a stupid question go and actually made Moore sound smarter. The spin you give it is so far off from the reality it is a parallel universe. Be blessed, iggy tr,

I have not judged you in the same way… you are saying things about emergents that are false. I have tried to explain why they are false and you take that as an attack on your person instead of being able to hear that the thing stated was not true.

You cannot separate a falsehood that is stated from a correction without taking it on a personal level and stooping got name calling and attacking me on a personal level… and Jim W. is even worse.

When I tried further explain Tony’s position on things a little clearer than Moore allowed in that 20 minute show in which Moore talked over TJ you just tole me I needed psychological help…

I then tried to further explain it and you guys just got nastier.

I have received emails from people who have read theses threads who can see this and have yet to receive any that agree with you and how you have treated me.

I have even converse in a very civil an graceful manner with the real James R White out of this who treated me with great grace. You could learn from him.

Yet, I suppose even this last comment will be met with nastiness of Jim W and yourself so it really is a wasted of time.

The only truth war is that I see is that one side want to actually talk and discuss things and the other wants to make things up about us and put us down and then call us names.

The question Moore asked about the emerging JW’s was so ignorant and irrelevant to us… JW’s in their own structure would not and cannot “emerge” and it showed the true lack of understanding Moore has. Tony was answering the question on another level altogether in that he heard Moore asking “if truth changes”… and Tony stated in effect, “No, but our perspective of it changes.” then gave the example of interracial marriage. Tony gracefully let a stupid question go and actually made Moore sound smarter.

The spin you give it is so far off from the reality it is a parallel universe.

Be blessed,
iggy

]]> By: Quintin http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8957 Quintin Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:44:53 +0000 http://galatiansc4v16.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-question-of-truth-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8957 I think we've gone down a side-path. Do you know I haven't even listened to that debate yet? Talk about a truth war... I think we’ve gone down a side-path.

Do you know I haven’t even listened to that debate yet?

Talk about a truth war…

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